back to article ICO tears school CCTV a new peephole

The debate on the use of CCTV in schools moved on this week, as the Information Commissioner ever so politely read the riot act over the use of CCTV systems in schools and colleges. The dressing-down followed a report by the Daily Mail of a distressing incident in which a school’s threat to "rewind the tapes" was used to …

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Sound disabled in some other way???

<<..If a system comes equipped with a sound recording facility then it should be turned off or disabled in some other way.”>>

Would a shotgun do it? Or paint an Israeli flag on it, and let the 'boys with long beards' deal with it with a bit of chapatti flour (etc) in a rucksack....

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Angus Drever

Maybe we should insist that Mr Drever taste his own medicine and be filmed continuously at work (and, what the hell, at home as well). One imagines he's all for kiddyprinting, too.

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Joke

Then why didn't she?

...as the mother of the girl caught by camera said: "Children should be taught to tell the truth without the use of these cameras."

Yeah, that worked well...

More seriously, as long as the camera wasn't in a private place, there isn't too much of a problem here - property stolen and hidden ("hiding them for a joke" == bollocks), property recovered.

This attitude has nothing whatsoever to do with other kids often hiding my stuff in school, yeah, absolutely nothing...

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Anonymous Coward

Data Protection Registration

The key question here is what the schools data protection act registration says. It would be illegal for them to use the recordings for a purpose which they haven't registered.

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Speaking from a schools IT point of view...

As an IT Tech in a school, I'd love to see our CCTV extended to cover the inside of the building, as well as just the entrances and exits - if we can't get the staff to stop leaving their laptops in unlocked classrooms, at least we could see the little bastards wondering off with them...

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Unhappy

Sick Society

I can't think of any greater proof of how low our county has fallen than to hear of 8 year old kids being intimidated like this.

The disgusting creatures that call themselves teachers at that indoctrination center that calls itself a PRIMARY school should be prosecuted for child abuse.

Oh, and while we're at it, in true 'think of the children' fashion, what steps are being taken to ensure that all these hours of CCTV footage are being kept out of the hands of the 'eevil peedofiles' (tm) ?

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Joke

meh

if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear.

apart from shoes, that is.

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Black Helicopters

Video phones

Does that mean that students can use their video phones in class to catch their teachers misbehaving?

Or is it (as usual) one rule for us and another rule for them...

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Wait....

... so she was threatened with "If you won't confess we'll have a look at the evidence" and it's a problem for the ICO?

That's bullsh*t.

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Anonymous Coward

Oh it starts with shoe-hiding.....

Then it inevitably leads down the road to sedition and revolution.

You can't blame the teachers for abdicating their responsibilities and using technology to control these 8 year old insurgent types.

We need Big Brother and re-education conditioning facilities if we are to have a free and decent society.

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Unhappy

Prudence meet Constance

> "Constant CCTV monitoring of all children in a class cannot be justified with reference to the need to address classroom disruption."

And when the disruption is constant...? And perpetrated by the same few little blighters that have been expelled from every other school in the area...? And when the internal problem notification system is no longer being operated by teachers who perceive it only as self-reporting of alleged incompetence or worse...?

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Unhappy

So what?

the girl at the centre of the inquisition was understandably less so. Her mother said: "My daughter no longer wants to go to the school: the cameras have made her a bit panicky."

drag her a**e into school, stop molly coddling them, and let them get used to the real world. When I had to do lines at school i didnt wanna go in, dad dragged me in kicking and screaming. didnt do me any harm

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Parental responsibility

[quote]

as the mother of the girl caught by camera said: "Children should be taught to tell the truth without the use of these cameras."

[/quote]

Perhaps mummy dearest should pull her bloody finger out then...

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Let me get this straight

A mother can't teach her daughter that bullying is wrong and that people should tell the truth. The cameras are used for their intended purpose, show the daughter to be a bully and the mother pretty clueless; and it is CCTV that is at fault?

Far from it. This is CCTV working as it should and ensuring that crimes (well, bullying in this case) do not go unpunished. The school should be praised for having the foresight to protect pupils from poorly raised ruffians like the girl in the story.

The fault here is not the school or CCTV, the fault is parents who are incapable of raising their children with a proper moral framework and respect for others. Perhaps if parents spent more time educating their offspring there would be less need for CCTV. With parents like this women shielding their children from the consequences of their anti-social and destructive behaviour, Britain will slide deeper into dysfunction and it will become ever more important for the state to fill the moral vacuum left by incompetent parenting.

So do the right thing, support your schools in enforcing discipline and teach your children the difference between right and wrong. That will go much further than misguidedly moaning about CCTV, ID Cards etc.

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Anonymous Coward

makes me think

Make me think, new ads,

"Would you let government CCTV monitoring into your house?"

"No."

"Do you want your children to die becouse you weren't there?"

"No."

"Do you own a fire alarm?"

"Yes."

"Well then, there's no difference between a fire alarm and the new G-CCTV Kid friendly monitoring technology. For just £30 with recurring £10 monthly fee."

"Get G-CCTV it'll save your family!"

"If you don't, then you've just murdered your family."

"Gee I'm sure glad I bought G-CCTV - now I can check my house 24 hours a day, from anywhere in the world and my family hasn't died yet!" Satisfied customer.

Probably a shot away to a wrecked house with a miserable looking poor couple who are crying

"The Johnsons didn't get G-CCTV, their child used the INTERNET to have a party whilst they were on holiday. In the end the house was wrecked and their daughter raped and their eldest son died of brain injuries as he desperatly tried to help her."

"We wish we bought G-CCTV - then our little darlings would have been safe!" Father - wobbling lip tear in the eye.

"Don't let this happen to you" Mother - sobbing.

Sorry it was just the mothers reaction that made me think of this.

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Proportionality

A bit excessive. Too bad that kind of effort wasn't put into something more worthy.

A woman I'd gone to school with (when we were 7 years old) remembered me hiding her boot. I really don't remember any of this, but she said I told her where it was so I could give her a peck on the cheek. The funny part was that she was more confused by why someone would take just one of her boots. I was more confused why I didn't remember giving a pretty girl a kiss on the cheek. She did enjoy telling this story at the night club I worked at.

If this had happened in this current culture, I'd have been expelled for sexual harrassment as well as punished for the boot hiding. This is also something I can picture my nephews doing and they're quite a bit older than this girl is. No one was hurt and the girl who hid them should have been talked to privately to not do it again. No wonder people don't know how to act around each other.

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Anonymous Coward

@David

"When I had to do lines at school i didnt wanna go in, dad dragged me in kicking and screaming. didnt do me any harm"

Possibly, except for your spelling and punctuation.

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Anonymous Coward

won't somebody

Think of the children?

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Anonymous Coward

Get all your children Equity cards..

"..The Classwatch website also focuses heavily on the issues of staff development and teacher support, both valid uses for in-class recording..."

As there seems to be a bit of a legal fudge going on somewhere as to the 'public place' status of schools/classrooms, and, bear in mind, schools get stroppy if pupils or parents try filming on their grounds..

Ok, so get your kiddies onto the books of an acting agency, once the cameras are rolling, as pushy showbiz type parents (or, better still, get your new star's agent onto them), you could argue the case that, as the wee red light is flashing, your darling child is no longer being educated, but is participating in the shoot of a "staff development " video, or is participating in some other form of ertzatz "reality tv" type recording, then demand that they get paid the appropriate equity/whatever hourly rates for child extras, and, ISTR, the rates are higher if you have a speaking part.

Claim copyright abuse over unauthorised use of actor's image, demand all video footage etc in violation be turned over to you..

Screw with them, skew their CBA to the point that they'll see it'll cost them dearly to keep the cameras in place. They're supposed to be running schools, not Stazi detention and interrogation centres.

(and yes, I know Equity cards are now no longer strictly required for luvvies etc)

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I don't know why anyone wants to be a ...

teacher anymore. Actually, that's not exactly true but if I were I would want all my interactions with children/students and their parents recorded, with no chance (no area of the school or its grounds) not covered.

Ya' gotta' cover your ass as students will lie to gain an advantage and these days their parents are often no help in ascertaining the truth.

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Was the system supplied by a Mr Gadd?

These sick perverts who film kids should be locked up and the key thrown away!

Strange though that this "stolen shoe" situation is about the only one I can think of that CCTV would help bring a quicker resolution to -- and there was no need to resolve it as they did.

While I have sympathy for the girl whose shoes were taken this experience should teach her a valuable lesson about the world: keep your things safe because there are people out there who will take them. As it is she's been taught that CCTV will protect her and her belongings which, I think most adults realise, is not quite true...

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Anonymous Coward

@Let me get this straight

WOah you sure draw a lot of conclusions from this little story. All of the sudden the 8 year old girl is a mennasing bully set to destroy the world.. Or maybe she hid the shoes aass a joke that 8 year olds make. The friend with the missing shoes went to the teacher (maybe crying) about her not finding her shoes. All of which the 8 year old shoe napper haddent predicted. When faces with the anrgy inquicitory teacher the 8 year old shoe napping terrorist responded like a lot of 8 year old kids when called out on being naughty. She paninced and denied every thing. The teacher after having had a long day listening to kids yell had had enough for that day and choose the (in her/his oppinion and made a threat.

My point is that there are a lot of unknowns in the situation so please comment on what we know and not on what you assume.

(Oh and ps. here are a bunch of dots that you may use cause i dident bother... heh .......................................................)

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If you can't do the time....

"My daughter no longer wants to go to the school: the cameras have made her a bit panicky."

What, so the kid is concerned she might be caught being a right little arsehole? Oh no. The horror.

I agree that sticking a camera everywhere can be excessive, but getting all pissy because a kid has been caught being a shit to another kid is going a bit far. Thats what the CCTV cameras are there fore. Safety and ensuring you don't get away with being the little bastards kids invariably are when teachers aren't watching.

I say "lesson learned".

-- Richard

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Stop

What if....

that was you in school, that you were playing a prank on one of your buddies, he took it the wrong way and told the teacher. Normally the situation would be resolved (attack of guilt trip teacher) and you return item and apologize. But with CCTV, you hate that student, you're afraid of the teacher watching you everyday, you don't know where the camera's are, they could be anywhere, you're worried that something they see is taken the wrong way.

What is with the world that children must be watched 24/7? I thought the constant EVERYONE'S A PEDO was bad, but really???

Glad I'm in the US and not the UK, though our countries both seem to be on equal slippery slopes.

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@ Anonymous Coward

'won't somebody Think of the children?'

You're confusing teachers with Catholic priests.

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Yes, but...

Who will watch the watchers?

@AC - Prudence meet Constance - "perpetrated by the same few little blighters that have been expelled from every other school in the area..."

And whose fault is that that we now need to monitor everyone 24 hours a day 7x24 and then the monitoring isn't used to correct the problems anyway. Get rid of all the bleeding hearts and bring back the cluebat.

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Funny thing is....

I can almost see why Teachers (especially male ones) would *want* the cameras all over school.

I'm white, male, 40-ish. Basically, that means that if a woman or a kid accuses me of being "indecent", then it's up to me to prove myself innocent. And even if I did, it'd be because I "got away with it somehow".

So yes, I can see why some teachers would want 24/7 recording of their interactions with the students. In our current society, it's almost a survival move.

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Happy

CCTV has taken all the fun...

...out of hiding people's stuff.

Unless of course your the only one that knows how to operate the DVR.

Shoes? I haven't seen your shoes!

Let me check ...nope, nothing on the cams.

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Black Helicopters

I hate CCTV...

...but there might be a case for cameras in the classroom.

In a time when any kid can say "teacher hit me" or "teacher made a pass at me" and instantly ruin a career, cameras might be the only way to protect the teacher involved. As it stands if an accusation is made then the teacher is instantly suspended, guilty or not. An investigation may find them innocent, but that teacher will still be absent from school for days which will disrupt the other children's education and cost the school money for a cover teacher. It has happened to people I know.

Perhaps there is a case for cameras in classrooms with a strict policy that the recordings cannot be accessed except by special permission in the event of a serious investigation?

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Unhappy

crass assumptions

to those of the hang-em-and-flog-em brigade above - just note that in the original story the mother of the "victim" states "her friend played a trick". "Friend" that is. Not evil-little-bullying-witch-hang-by-the-neck-til-dead. Meanwhile the 8-year old who hid the shoes received a warning letter - and if you get three of these you're suspended. Common sense and proportionality prevails all round. Well done to all concerned.

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eh?

'As an IT Tech in a school, I'd love to see our CCTV extended to cover the inside of the building, as well as just the entrances and exits - if we can't get the staff to stop leaving their laptops in unlocked classrooms, at least we could see the little bastards wondering off with them...'

- You don't need an expensive CCTV system to sort this problem. Staff leaves laptop unattended and unsecured = they pay for a replacement. Simple.

'In a time when any kid can say "teacher hit me" or "teacher made a pass at me" and instantly ruin a career, cameras might be the only way to protect the teacher involved. As it stands if an accusation is made then the teacher is instantly suspended, guilty or not.'

- Drives to a similar point made by AC #12:53 about the society we live in creating the CCTV/ID/Stasi 'sticking plaster' solution.

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Black Helicopters

Why do I need a title?

Just one question.

How many of the commenters who say

"I want cameras in schools watching the children 24/7"

Also say

"I dont want cameras on the streets watching me 24/7"

Just a thought.

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