Opponents of the Church of Scientology have accused the controversial organisation of attempting to ban a pair of HIV-positive protesters. Lawyers acting for Scientology are allegedly using medical information about two protesters picketing a Scientology facility near Hemet, California in an attempt to prevent the duo's …
If only there was a way to cure Scientologists.
There is a way to cure Scientologists, it's called a Cluebat.
I appreciate the sentiment, but actually you ought to be able to cure them as it's learned behaviour, not innate. :-)
@Flugal - there is a way to cure scientologists
Laugh at them - ridicule them. They can't abide it, neither can the Abrahamists - after all, it's cool to sacrifice children, isn't it?
(Sorry - just finished Dawkins' book - nothing for me, a Buddhist, to worry about).
You don't want to cure them. You want them to be prevented from breeding.
I've got a message here from a bloke calling himself Xenu who's promised to collect all the Scientologists, cart them away somewhere and sort them out. Permanently.
Nice guy too. Apparently he's been in the pest control business for some time now.....
"I appreciate the sentiment, but actually you ought to be able to cure them as it's learned behaviour, not innate. :-)"
And yet recent scientific proof shows that it's -not- a learned behaviour
Re: Not innate
I think he meant Scientology is a learned behaviour.
"We emailed requests for comment to the Church of Scientology and Graham Berry, lawyer for the protesters, on Wednesday. We'll update this story as and when we hear back from them."
"hear back from them" bwa ha ha
"I think he meant Scientology is a learned behaviour."
Like repeatedly hitting yourself in the face with a shoe until you *really* *believe* you are a pavement.
Both make just about the same amount of sense.
yes, scientologies brainwashing antics are certainly learned by the people who're drawn in, however, from what I read recently, gay people have a ~20% larger amygdala, I don't know exactly how true this is, but surely a consistent physiological correlation shows that it IS genetic, and not learned in the slightest, and therefore, if there is one (im not saying either way) the work of god, so gay people are meant to be gay (and come on, who would CHOOSE it?!?! though if I was a woman I certainly would), so leave them alone and get the fck on with your own life!
Cure for Scientology.
Intra-cranial Lead injection?
I would choose it
Well, actually, I did choose it. Quite early, but I don't think it is 'built into' my genes, as nothing behavioural is that simple.
Men would choose it because they would have the best sex of their lives. Every ex-straight guy I know just groans when thinking back to his straight days -- not enough sex and not that great when it did happen. Now clearly there are many happy straight men, but for hot sex, gay's the word.
"but for hot sex, gay's the word"
If you ever run an ad campaign please, please use that as a slogan.
>nothing for me, a Buddhist, to worry about
People are people regardless of the religion that they choose to select from, psuedo religions like scientology and buddism are followed by people, by calling yourself a buddhist you want people to assume you have all the virtues of the "faith" and none of the crimes, this is why crack head (but genius) Ron H started scientology, that and to become very rich of course.
Take the Dalai Lama for example, a pure spirtualist leader or the leader of an elite class who wants to subjugate an entire population by using Democratic Imperialism? no that's silly, after all he wasn't on the CIA payroll (definitely not $1.7m a year), nor did he run away to india with (60 tons) of Tibettan treasure, and certainly there was no using "peasants" as slaves, sexually abusing young boys or organising guerillas (terrorists by another name), no support for nuclear testing, nope, he did none of that stuff, move on... nothing to see here (oh, and is in no way related to the sarin nerve gas release in Tokyo, either before you ask).
Francis, you like most people are probably a "good" person, you don't need a religious label to tell people this, moreover the only real way forward is to ditch all such labels and just get on with being good to people, someone will always use your chosen label to hurt people and you'll be tarred with that brush.
The title suggests that their HIV status is being used in a legal action to stop them protesting, but that doesn't appear to be the case.
The scientologists have allegedly circulated their private medical records, I'm pretty sure that's illegal in the states.
The loonies are trying to stop them protesting with legal actions.
But the two aren't connected, even in the states you can't get an injunction saying people with HIV aren't allowed to protest but everyone else is, it would be bizarre. The anti protest ordnance prevents _people_ from protesting within fifty feet of the "residence" apparently on the basis that it's their house, which doesn't seem enormously unreasonable. Although it's always worrying when protests are restricted.
As for the nature/nurture debate, you guys need to live a little, who needs labels?
Re: I would choose it
"Well, actually, I did choose it. Quite early, but I don't think it is 'built into' my genes, as nothing behavioural is that simple."
You have to be given options in order to choose it. I was never given an option. When I was youger, I was always inclined towards other males my age. I had no inclination towards females. At the time, I had never heard of gay or straight or that there was a difference, I just new what I liked. It wasn't until later that I found out that I was what society termed as gay.
Now to be fair, when I did learn of the difference, I did try having female partners, but the emotional, physiological and psychological satisfaction just did not compare to the satisfaction I would get from being with male partners.
I made the 3rd comment - I guess I wasn't clear enough for some people -so thanks for pointing out what I actually said, Sarah.
@Learned - Yes, I would choose to be gay - I have no desire to breed (it's fun entertaining other people's children and then handing them back to the parents to do the chores) and I am lucky enough to live in a community where homophobia is rare enough to be the subject of mere amusement. There are a lot of well-adjusted and happy gay (etc) people around.
However (and this is @Hollerith too), for most people it takes a LONG time to get to that state, because being gay at school, coming out to parents, etc, is hardly a bundle of fun. It's a sad reflection on people's prejudices that there is even today an organisation (the Albert Kennedy Trust) which provides fostering etc specifically for young people who have been rejected by their families due to homophobia. I do feel that you're exaggerating a little for effect, Hollerith! :-) But you have a point - certain genetic predispositions may or may not result in anything, although what triggers them does not necessarily have anything to do with free will.
As to the Scientologists - well they're just nuts.
On the basis of that recommendation I'm thinking of giving it try!
On the actual subject in hand. Although this is a pretty daft story, after all I can't believe that even an American judge would do more than laugh this out of court, it does serve to give another example of the downright despicable tactics of an organsiation, sorry cult, that is determined to prevent anyone challenging it.
Thumbs up for the recommendation and the story?
@I would choose it
Obviously they weren't doing it right then. Or they didn't find the right woman. Get the right woman and learn to do it right and you'll always have mind blowing sex. Another great reason my wife loves me and I love her. Oh yeah, I've heard that being married and having great communication in the relationship helps. More so the latter.
> "nothing for me, a Buddhist, to worry about"
True, but also no remedy for past injustice and nothing to look forward to for the future but more of the same, over and over again, if not for you, then for others.
One might reach nirvana, but to want nothing, to have no desires for anything, is the obliteration of the person. To not desire love, companionship, beauty, the end of suffering of others, is some people's idea of hell. To be in a permanent state of bliss, perfect happiness while the world is in its current state implies either ignorance, unconsciousness or callousness. To not feel pain at the suffering of others is some people's idea of a demon.
Ooh sorry, we're supposed to be making fun of daft people people aren't we! Who was that again? Dawkins says the universe is random which doesn't leave much room for karma, so are we talking about him or the Scientologists?
I'm all confused! Are we supposed to be bashing all the intolerant people who don't believe the same as us?
Interesting legal issue ...
I think that while everyone here is on the 'bash the scientologist ' they missed a very important point.
How did the 'church' know that these two were HIV+?
Unless the 'church' can show that the two protesters openly posted or admitted that they were HIV+, then the 'church' just created a very serious legal situation.
Questions concerning how they obtained the medical information can lead to showing that there were HIPAA violations made on the part of the 'church', or on behalf of the 'church' by one or more of its employees or members, or both.
How they obtained the information can also lead to potential criminal charges as well.
I wonder what the lawyers have to say about this...
The IT? because while this is interesting, where's the IT angle? :-)
re: Cure scientologists?
> You don't want to cure them. You want them to be prevented from breeding.
You want to turn them gay?
Hmm, I'm sure there's a Darwin Award in there somewhere....
The judge isn't concerned with their HIV status at all.
In fact the more I look at this story the more it's just dubious propaganda.
Maybe the scientologists have circulated claims that the pair are HIV+. If the cult has done this then they should be facing charges, medical info is privileged information in the states.
(I find it distasteful that we're in a society that attaches shame to an illness BTW.)
The court case is a straight forward injunction to prevent _ANYONE_ (HIV or not, gay or not) protesting within 50 feet of what they claim is their house, even then they can still protest on the pavement opposite.
There is a cure for scientology
Take the money out of it - those at the top and the lawyers would soon loose interest in it.
I remember seeing a protest on youtube where a man collected pubes from fellow 4channers.
He then covered his bare top half in vaseline and applied the pubes.
He then ran into a CoS church thing and hugged people. It was both the funniest and grossest thing I've ever seen.
He then dry humped a pile of scientology books.
Paris, because pubes and vaseline are her main export.
I'm impressed that Anonymous has stayed the course thus far
and really rattled Scientology's cage. They may not have smashed the organisation, but they have at least shown up how hilariously inept the "C"oS PR machine really is. Xenu FTW
The Co$ discovered their promised land is just about where Tel Aviv is. That would cure quite a lot. Real aliens vs real predators.
If religion is intrinsically a delusion, how can you possibly have a pseudo-religion? A fake delusion as compared to a 'real' one?
Oh you chose it did you, like you chose your taste in music and what food you like, you may choose to eat certain foods, because that's what you enjoy most, just like if you choose to act in a homosexual way, you ARE gay! and according to the studies, have a 20% larger amygdala, the organ responsible for identification of objects, and certain sexual functions amongst others,
do you think that your amygdala has grown because you chose to do gay things? I think not!!
Not a gay issue
This issue has nothing to do with "gay". It has to do with the question if protesters are allowed to intimidate Scientologists by screaming and yelling in front of their homes, for hours and hours. The police said: "no". The protesters said: "you say that only because I have AIDS". I call that a red herring and damaging to the community.
"One might reach nirvana, but to want nothing, to have no desires for anything, is the obliteration of the person. To not desire love, companionship, beauty, the end of suffering of others, is some people's idea of hell."
You seem to be of the opinion that enlightenment comes at a price, only a society as fcked up as ours could have bred this thinking, how could that be their idea of hell, it's their idea of hell because when they imagine it, they imagine their current state of mind minus the things they want, had they been fortunate enough to receive some insights, they would not merely be a personalityless automaton, they would be much more, as they have merely seen beyond the conditioning you are so trapped in, and learnt that there is more to conciousness than selfish [deluded] "beliefs" and desires
"To be in a permanent state of bliss, perfect happiness while the world is in its current state implies either ignorance, unconsciousness or callousness. To not feel pain at the suffering of others is some people's idea of a demon."
Once you learn certain things, you realise theres things a bit more important that what 'you' feel, and spending all that time thinking about what you want and need etc you've actually been rather selfish, buddhism teaches of ultimate compassion to all living things, certainly not living in ignorance of their suffering, please go and reasearch before you make such sweeping generalised statements about the most peaceful and non-religious religion going, and meditate, you'll see the truth eventually (and its right in front of your face)
Whoops, I actually managed to mis-spell it there, how retarded of me,
But I did just want to add a quote from the great terence mckenna (who certainly wasnt religious, but certainly had a damn sight better idea of whats going on than most people) which really sums up my reasoning (to me anyway)
"once you touch the inner core of your own and someone elses being, you cant be led into thing fetishism and consumerism."
Wasn't she in Star Wars?
>do you think that your amygdala has grown because you chose to do gay things? I think not!!
I dunno about that, if I hopped everywhere on my right leg then my right leg would grow.
Has anyone actually studied it?
Ban the Co$
It is the only way.
(Of course, all religion should be banned, but especially this dangerous cult...)
Dali Lama after L. Ron
@ Francis Fish
"Take the Dalai Lama for example, a pure spirtualist leader or the leader of an elite class who wants to subjugate an entire population by using Democratic Imperialism? no that's silly, after all he wasn't on the CIA payroll (definitely not $1.7m a year), nor did he run away to india with (60 tons) of Tibettan treasure, and certainly there was no using "peasants" as slaves, sexually abusing young boys or organising guerillas (terrorists by another name), no support for nuclear testing, nope, he did none of that stuff, move on... nothing to see here (oh, and is in no way related to the sarin nerve gas release in Tokyo, either before you ask)."
I love you and want to have your baby-fish
And to the coward who mentioned "Choice" I am straight and have decided not to have children it's really easy, and the most enviromentally friendly thing you can do. Several gay couples I am friendly with have kids, sexuality has nothing to do with breeding, breeding really is a choice.
The fact on Scientology
Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard on his deathbed told his son
"You know how to get rich... start a religion." admitting that Scientology is nothing but a fictionally created story.
Scientology is nothing but a corporation that thrives off the ignorance of it's followers by selling them and whoever else books, and courses on how to "improve" themselves spiritually.
One of their expensive scams is that they will sell you for extremely large
amounts of money a series of books that in the end are supposed to teach you how to walk through walls.... and after spending long hours of self deceptive meditation, a lot of money, and reading you become brainwashed to believe that you can actually walk through walls and when you try to and end up bumping your nose against the wall you are told that you couldn't do it because you're not ready yet however there are more books and courses available that will someday make it possible for you to do so for larger amounts of money butt not really.
Scientology = manipulative corporate scam brainwashing moneybaggers club
Scientologist = manipulated misguided fool
I know someone who got sucked into that Scientology I didn't know he was a Scientologist until one day, about 4 years ago, he said "Rob here's a book you should read." He passed me Dianetics by L. Ron Hubbard. I laughed and said "L. Con Flubbfart ha forget it." For the first time in the years since I've known the guy he displayed anger and I'm talking very angry!!! Verbally with an agressive face.
After that display he went on to talk about the ability to walk through walls, he hasn't reached that level but he plans on getting there etc...
providing financial support for Proposition 8
And here's part of the crux of this problem. If you want to play at church and get yourself declared "tax free", you need to stay out of politics. If you want to get into politics, you need to pay your taxes like the rest of us. I have no problem if you thump you chest at the pulpit of xenu and tell everyone within hearing distance what you think. When you cross over the line is when you start throwing tax-free dollars into the pot and messing with other folks rights.
First off if you are a scientologist then I'd just like to point out that you are scum. If you are not a scientologist then you are just a misinformed gullible dolt. The protesters are standing outside one of scientologys control cntres where they do administration of their worldwide scam and extortion rackets. It;s the scientologists who stand outside peoples houses telling lies to their neighbors. Of course once the victims explain that the people harassing the are scientologists it has the opposite effect. If anyone in my neighbourhood had scientologists giving them a hard time I'd certainly loan them a bowl of sugar.
Hey Man, I really hope you're not referring to me when you talk about the coward mentioning choice, not having children is absolutely a personal choice, as for whether someone is gay, I do not personally believe (but I am not telling anyone else what to believe) that is a personal choice, that is, I believe that a person does not choose their sexuality any more than they choose the colour of their hair or their skin, certain traits, are most likely learnt, and are a result of things that happen to that person during their life, for instance, i believe some people are drawn to certain types of music simply to defy their parents, then again, I discovered a lot of the music I first loved through my parents, so maybe how you feel about them is just determined by how your music taste corresponds to theirs? haha, thats a joke, cause and effect can so often be interpreted where it simply does not exist, then again, i listened to music for my own enjoyment, rather than to use it like some kind of clothing. then again, when we look at it, what happens to you is not your choice, and what you think is partially a result of who you are, and partially what has happened to you up until that point, so do we have any free will at all, oh no its all got so complicated, and it all started off about scientology and hiv, surely hilarity was guaranteed??
its actually not funny, of course, apart from the imaginary place where no one really gets hurt, oh now and now i've gone and forgotton to not press the anonymous button, because, after all, who the fck knows who i am anyway,
no hard feelings, to anyone, seriously, im not having a go at anyone, if you're gay straight got five arms and a nob hanging off your left elbow, anyone who's conscious, regardless of what they think or feel, underneath is the same, now can we just all get along??
Sorry, there is no way to cure Scientologists. Knuckle dragging, drooling, dull minded stupidity that makes your average inbred Deliverance type look smart (required to be a scientology mermber) is incurable by any method that does not result in the heart stopping.
As for stopping them breeding, I suggest blowing up the turkey baster facto.... sorry, the factor where they make the L Ron Hubbard Squirter, the only insemination device (natural or otherwise) to be used by Scientologists. It comes with a 60 day replacement gurantee backed by Xenu (Shipping costs of $100,000 are not covered)
Here's the problem; Scientologists tend to be fairly intelligent. They'd have to be, to make as much as they do ( and to be able to buy in to the religion as much as they do ).
This just proves that even intelligent people can be manipulated and controlled with ease. I know, I worked for a scientology organization. They were fucking nuts, but I'd have never accused them of being dumb.
I suggest reading about the Virtue of Selfishness before you denounce it as most mystics do.
Ah, the CoS... Just pray to <deity of choice> that they don't have the longevity of the catholic church and can be squashed before the century's out. I suspect it won't be long.
>I'd just like to point out that you are scum.
I think you have to accept that many of the lower rungs of the scientology pyramid are
victims more than anything else.
>If you are not a scientologist then you are just a misinformed gullible dolt.
No, he's right, the ban on protesting is very limited, the "control centre" as you call it was
presented to court as a "residence" i.e. people live there. So the court agreed a moderate
50 foot limit, specifically allowing the pavement opposite. No talk of gays or HIV in court at
all, so that's all just bollocks. You're right that the scientologists (as do a lot of religious
groups) roam the streets harassing people to join their cult, if they did it regularly in front of
your house then you too could get a court order.
Just because you hate them doesn't mean you have to be irrational about it.
>Sorry, there is no way to cure Scientologists.
That kind of thing along with the "stop them breeding" talk, is exactly why I feel the need
to defend these loonies whenever this kind of "story" comes up.
Perhaps you could suggest a final solution for the Scientology problem?
>If you want to play at church and get yourself declared "tax free", you need to stay out of politics.
You mean like the Church of England?
You think the Pope stays out of politics?
Politics is about power, once you have power then what you do or say is politics whether
you like it or not. Not that I'm convinced that the scientologists are powerful, it's the
breathless reporting that makes them seem it.
a "threat" to the wellbeing of 500 Scientology workers...
The only threat to wellbeing is scientology itself. Just finished the John Duignan book, not totally surprising except perhaps the lengths that Scientology will go to (a) to keep members and (b) to suppress discussion.
I for one do not welcome the earthly representatives of the alleged overlords of the universe...
The whole thing is a complete racket
I can not believe that in this day and age this level of homophobic bollocks still exists.
What sort of *religion would go out of its way to do this?...... oh.
Just so you all know how this cult works, may I suggest watching this excellent parody created by South Park:
Spin through to about 47" to get past the usual rubbish.
JonB "You mean like the Church of England?"
However, you don't see restraining orders on people reading the bible to other people.
You don't see families of people who talk against CofE being harrassed.
You don't see people who leave CofE being threatened or even killed.
CoS is the ONLY religion that DEMANDS trade secret of its "truth". Because without the brainwashing beforehand to increase gullibility, the load of crap that CoS spout is ridiculously obvious.
CoS *cannot* survive discussion. CofE does each day.
re: Not a gay issue
You're right that this isn't a gay issue, Lu. you have why it isn't dead wrong.
This is just one way for CoS to stop people who aren't brainwashed to learn about CoS practices. The gay element is merely one way to whine that there's a "genuine" risk to them so they can get a protest banned.
CoS is peopled by brainwashed morons and run by evill scum of the earth, started by an arrogant twat as a bet.
There's less truth in CoS than there is in Pastafarianism and Jedi: at least these two don't ruin lives.
"If religion is intrinsically a delusion, how can you possibly have a pseudo-religion? A fake delusion as compared to a 'real' one"
Easy. If it isn't operated like a real religion, it isn't a religion. If it demands it be treated like a religion anyway, it is a pseudo-religion.
You will still likely have friends you made in the Muslim church.
You will be hounded, threatened, attacked and have scurrilous rumours passed around about you, your family, your employer and your friends.
And the Quran says in some part of it that you should ignore the one who leaves Islam. Other places say you should greet your brother whether he follows Islam or not, since only Allah can judge. And most Islamist believers are genuinely human beings and will take the latter option over the former.
CoS brainwashes you until you can't handle anyone leaving. If they left, they must be those hateful non-humans and you MUST DESTROY THEM (in the voice of Morbo) before their contamination spreads.
Your last point is a good one - all the religions should not be allowed to form lobbies or donate to political causes.
I think perhaps a fair way to do it is to invite an advisor from each religious group, including the various secular humanist, LGBT groups, and form a consultation panel - a think tank, which the government can dip into for ideas or to bounce things off.
Having that many representatives of different groups advising will see a very tolerant, fair and balanced viewpoint through necessity.
They will probably argue intensely each point. In which case, treat them like a jury, they go into the room, they get refreshments, they are presented with the points of the item to think about, and then are allowed to think about it until they reach some sort of consensus statement - more than a simple yes/no, as it may contain better suggestions. Government can rethink, send things back, etc.
The group would be unelected in the general sense, but would contain members put forward by the various groups (which may elect them or chose them internally any way they want).
Give no group priority over any other.
Hmm - perhaps this is one for the halfbakery...