RE: Re: RE: Re: Re: Bill and Yet Another AC
"HP Sales Grunt, HP Sales Grunt, HP Sales Grunt..." This is just another example of Sunshiner blinkers - you can post the same fact over and over and they just don't listen. I'm not HP sales, get over it. I am one of the majority of customers Sun is failing to satisfy.
"....Oracle used the same legalize that they put in all white papers of the sort...." No they didn't. I have plenty of Oracle and vendor whitepapers without any such statement. I have even seen old Sun/Oracle papers without a statement like that.
"....The fact that you only believe in SPEC and TPC says a lot about you...." Let me explain how the enterprise works seeing as you obvioulsy haven't been there. At the top are a whole lot of people without much IT knowledge called "the board". They sit down, talk to analysts, look at the market, and try and predict where they want the business to go in X years. Then they draw up a list of business requirements to get there, and then ask us in IT what we will need to fulfill those bizz reqs. This usually means the discussion starts with an application selection, not an OS. If the application only runs on one platform (say IBM mainframe) and there is no viable alternative, then the choice is clear. But, if you go for something say like SAP, where there are many options, then you need a starting point to compare them. In such situations, using SPEC and TPC raw figures as suggested by the app vendor will get you in the right ballpark and save you having to test every option out there. Then you can use a PoC to compare (which is also a good way to get the vendors concerned into a price-war ;) ). That is why SPEC and TPC are still valid.
"....As a matter of fact SPEC and TPC say exactly nothing about how a system will work with these industry benchmarks...." Strange then that Sun used to sprout them so often when SPARC had competitive figures. But now they've fallen off the performance map they're keen to avoid that type of comparison. What a surprise - NOT!
"Clearly you're running scared, attacking what you don't understand...." Running scared from what? We have less and less Slowaris in our environment every year. There is a simple reason - we do what we need to do better and cheaper on other platforms. This seems to reflect the way of the market as shown by Sun's awful market position. The only people running scared are the Sunshiners.
"....But maybe, just maybe if you actually tried to learn Solaris, you'd find that you actually like it. Performance is WAY improved since the 400Mhz processors you obviously last used when running Solaris...." We have a small contingent of Sunshiners that insist we appraise Slowaris regularly against hp-ux and RHEL. Seeing as we also have a policy of trying to avoid vendor lockin, we usually take tenders from at least two parties. This means I have tested Slowaris on x86 blades from Sun, hp and IBM, against WIndows and RHEL, and Slowaris on Niagara and M-series against hp-ux, RH and Windows on Integirty (we do still have some VMS but that is usually for apps where we don't want to port to another OS). We have in a few instances bought FSC kit for Slowaris apps where we couldn't or wouldn't port due to difficulty, but otherwise we have not bought any new Sun kit for over three years, even when Sun walked in with their pants round their ankles, because they had the least to offer. In every major project it was the board that signed off, and they have zero loyalty to any vendor, they just look at our PoC results, prices and vendor relationship. It may amuse you to know that in one instance I actually recommended some Niagara kit for a web-based project but the board went for RHEL on Xeon instead, mainly because the RHEL option was cheaper and proven.
"....PH-UX isn't exactly a screaming perf-fest - nobody in the real world is running it!..." Well we are, so I can calmly ignore the rest of your childish rant. In fact, hp-ux on Integrity is gaining share on Slowaris on SPARC/Niagara, as the IDC and Gartner market figures show. As an example, go check the telecoms billing market, which used to be a Slowaris paradise - it is now ruled by hp Integrity. And one reason is hp's wider, deeper product portfolio puts it in a better position to meet all a customer's requirements. Sun failed to diversify and failed to innovate, which is why it is now so deep in the doodoo.
"...Why would I want an OS from a company that makes more money from printer ink than anything else?..." Oh dear, your snobbery is showing. Go check the figures, whilst hp make plenty of money from the printer bizz (a case of innovation - they didn't just get to where they are by hoping, they diversified and innovated), they also make shedloads from x86, storage, software and big iron, amongst others. The reason you want an OS from company like that is because they will have the money to invest in research and development. Unlike Sun, where they are bleeding through their reserves at such a rate I have seen analysts' reports saying they will be broke inside three years. You can sneer at print all you like, but hp's print bizz will be around long after JAVA has been delisted and Sun relegated to the Silicon Valley museums.
"...Working with the community? Yes - Sun obviously doesn't know how to do that as NFS, JAVA, OpenOffice, RPC, XDR were all just figments of imagination...." Lol, but the difference is hp and IBM work with the community an make money from Linux, whereas Sun just p*ss off the community and make vritually zero money from Linux, and SFA from Open Solaris. Sun is making a big loss on open source and the revenue from the x64 servers is sold is not going to make enough in the long run to keep Sun afloat without radical trimming of both the Sun product lines and staff. Java is a prime example of Sun failing to make any return on an expensive project.
"....HP are certainly no innovators in terms of the Linux world...." Really? So how come hp have people on a number of Linux steering commitees then? Unlike Sun. And how come hp were supporting all their x86 range with Linux when Schwartz was still mouthing off about "Solaris on SPARC and nothing else"? Take the blinkers off, take a deep breath, and then do some reading. Hp's long involvement in Linux is on record, based on the idea of using Linux as a COMPLIMENTARY product to hp-ux and Windows, rather than the Sun's history of fearing, FUDing and fighting Linux.
"....where IS the PH-UX source?..." Why should hp open source hp-ux? They don't need to. But they did open source OpenVMS, arguably a much better product than Slowaris, especially on Integrity with hp's superior storage and software offerings (gotta keep the VMS trolls happy, they're mainly old and get all grouchy round Christmas time).
But it is the season of goodwill, so I'll lay off the Sunshiners and simply wish you all a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, and hopefully Santa will bring you all some Linux skills!