Bottle - Genie = Foot + Mouth shurely?
The first public sector employees are waking up to the fallout from the leaking of the BNP membership list yesterday. Although the list was removed from its original blog home it has reappeared at several mirror sites, on bittorrent and on Wikileaks. Wikileaks uses encryption to protect its sources and is widely distributed …
Bottle - Genie = Foot + Mouth shurely?
is surely minus the bottle?
So shouldn't that tag line be genie - bottle = foot + mouth
is a US construct. Here in the UK the courts are quite happy to accept illegally obtained evidence, and have been for years.
It might not really matter.
If an organisation is receiving enough negative publicity they'll find a clause about "bringing the organisation into disrepute" or "outside activities interferring with the business" in their employment contract.
It also means that anyone arrested by the policewoman concerned who isn't white will immediately claim that her actions were racially motivated and the police would always be on the defensive.
regardless of the "evidence illegally obtained" argument, anyone could make up a list of names and addresses, claim it is known members of the BNP/KKK/Scientology/Whatever other racist/terrorist/religious group. even if it is from a "legitimate" source, who is to say someone hasn't added someone else's details out of spite?
Bottle - genie = foot + mouth
Oh yes, and, "Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!"
Boot out the BNP member from the police force, face legal backlash.
Don't boot out the BNP member, face public backlash.
I suggest the former; The law can't take the law into their own hands when they lose confidence in the police force.
Surely, getting round this is easy.
You just have to drag PC Plod into the office and ask him "are you a member of the BNP?". He can't really deny it can he? And so when he says "yes", you've nailed him and can justify kicking him out. You're not relying on any "poison tree" information; he just admitted it.
Just to show even-handedness, you probably have to ask everyone else in the office too, but so what?
So, if you want someone sacking who is a Police Offcier, sailor or your local councillor. Join them up to the BNP as a gift. Well worth £25 IMHO.
Except Nick Griffin confirmed the authenticity of the material thus validating it, which is a bit different than any random Joe compiling a list and publishing it (not to mention that it wouldn't get any publicity at all).
Viva la internet?
These people may be card carrying members of the BNP. This should be immaterial.
If any of these people have been displaying behaviour motivated by racial prejudice (or whatever), then that is wrong, and they should be dealt with accordingly.
However it is immoral to penalise somebody for merely supporting a cause (albeit an unpopular one), when they've been doing their job to the required standard, and if they haven't then the blame rests with the employer for not being rid of them a long time ago.
In the Netherlands political beliefs are protected by the same laws that protect against as racial, or sexual descrimination. We have no such law in the UK.
What's so illegal? Looking at a blog?
The only possibly illegal aspect would be how the poster got the list, if s/he was unauthorised to do so.
Using the published list would be legally obtained second-hand illegaly obtained evidence (if it was illegaly obained in the first place).
they are nationalist. There is a very important distinction there.
A person cannot control their race, but to a degree they can control which nation they are loyal to.
Nation and race are not one in the same thing. It is made more complicated because of family, but for those who are not racist they could get sperm from a bank of random sperm, and all mothers could be surrogate.
So you end up in a nation at birth, without mother or father, that state controls your life up to say the age of 4, at which point you choose the nation you want to belong to, and off you go there.
They are many races in different national parties around the globe, and to be honest most political parties claim nationalism. I don't why, it is like claiming you are for the people who vote you in.
The BNP is more central than the US democrats, we only have a few extreme parties, that is Labour and the monster raving looney party, for the main. The BNP is mainly about community, and heritage of the culture, they are probably pro keep the castles, pro keep the beer, pro keep the imperial weights and measures, and not for Europe.
Racism at any level is wrong, but if nationalism be wrong, I don't want to pay tax, and I declare independence immediately.
There was a vicar on there too I saw.
Highly unpleasant though the BNP is, it's a legal party. Banning serving police officers from belonging to a legal political party seems a very dubious move. Replace "BNP" with "Sinn Fein" in that situation, would it still be accepted without complaint everywhere? Either ban the police from belonging to any political party, or ban the BNP outright. Anything else must surely be dodgy ground?
...but it's still political discrimination to sack someone for membership. So long as he has a good service record, it's bang out of order to give him the boot.
Frankly, I think the way the BNP is demonised in the media and by serious politicians is shameful. They're not the kind of people I'd want to associate with, but they do have a small number of councillors now - which means quite a lot of votes. Treating the BNP as a second-class party means treating BNP votes as second-class votes, and that is not a good road to go down...
Why don't we try to address the reasons for the BNP's growing popularity, instead of cracking down on the BNP itself?
Surely the membership of this nasty little group should be open to view by request from the relevant authorities - so why on earth wasn't the list being periodically checked by the Police anyway?
I mean it's just a list of people with views different to your own. And I don't mean slightly different-in-a-way-you'll-accept-and-call-it-diversity, but views you actually find offensive. It doesn't really matter, so long as they conduct themselves properly.
For example, if the Merseyside Policeman was a Constable Savage-esque character at work then he should have been taken to task about it already. If he's not, and is generally a good copper then what's the problem?
Same with teachers- which would you prefer, a creationist who'll scare your kids with tales of damnation and fire into believing that an overblown fairy created the universe in 7 days, or someone who your kids might overhear using the "N" word?
If you let this happen, the time will come when they come for you because you have different views to the Ruling Party.
I'm not a member of the BNP- never have been, never will be. However, I'm actually scared at how much hate and anger is spewed forth at someone who you're mad at for spewing hate and anger.
I wonder if El Reg will post this comment?
They knowingly deceived their employer, boot them all. This is no different to lying about qualifications or a disability that would exclude you from a job.
Also...if they truly believed the BNP's views were not only the way to go but RIGHT, why would they be afraid of being identified? (other than the few that will lose their job, I can understand their concerns) I'm willing to bet that such a list of labour party members being released would not be so controversial
As a white person with a black partner and father to a mixed race child, I despise the BNP and everything they stand for. However, I am very uncomfortable with the notion that a person can be dismissed for being a member of a political party. I could just about understand a blanket ban on all political activism in certain professions. Naming specific parties though, no matter how unpleasant they may be, is starting down a slippery slope. Who decides which parties are OK to support?
So some members of the BNP are going to lose their job because of their opinion, and everybody finds this normal. Hmmm. Who's next? Communist? Free-Masons? Scientologists?
It is ironic, though, that people claiming to act out of virtuous anti-facism are giving a punishment of Berufsverbot -- the prohibition of engaging in certain professions that Nazi Germany used to inflict on Jews.
There was I expecting a juicy story on how the first `victims' were claiming the BNP leaked its own list for publicity.
BNP is a legal political organisation. The Home Office and the police should not restrict membership of any legal organisation. I do not agree with the views of the BNP, however they are entitled to hold those views and everyone, ESPECIALLY THE HOME SECRETARY should defend peoples right to hold their own political views.
This is not China.
Or the police force in question could just investigate the matter in response to "concerns that have been raised" and gather their own, untainted, evidence.
Pirate icon, because that's close to the traditional 'skull and crossbones' poison symbol.
Even though you may not like the BNP they are a legitimate LEGAL political party. Therefore There should be no legal recourse that says a member cannot do this/that job, whatever that job is.
We used to have something called guaranteed free speech
Everybody is entitled to their own opinion in our 'free democratic'TM society. We are heading for a dictatorship where personal opinions become criminal, where innocent activities become terrorist acts and everybody is guilty of something and can therefore be treated like a criminal at the whim of the police or government.
Does no-one else think this leak is a little fishy happening now as the BNP have been gaining support for a few years now, thanks mostly to politically correct government policies and as such have managed to steal a few seats away from the main parties. With a general election looming the government wants to grab every seat they can and losing a few to the BNP could mean the difference between winning and losing. What a great time to have a 'leak' and try and get a public backlash against an opposing party.
To quote Voltaire I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.
For the record, I do not vote nor support the BNP, but I am speaking out against the continual erosion of our rights that had to be fought for, not given. Many people died for the freedoms we have today and we are rolling over on our backs to surrender them.
A BNP member can't be in the police, but a Labour member can. A BNP member can't work in government but a Labour member can.. What about UKIP or the Monster Raving Loonies?
Whilst I find the BNP detestable, there's something not right there.
I am no supporter of the BNP, but it isn't an illegal organisation. As such I can't see how anybody could be sacked or otherwise disciplined at work for being a member, unless of course they signed a contract that specifically states BNP membership is allowed. I can see a few cases for discrimination or unfair dismissal arising out of this.
As soon as you start barring people from employment for membership of one legal political party then the same rules must be applied to members of all political parties.
Rather than trying to outlaw the party by stealth the powers that be need to either (a) have the courage of their convictions and ban the party or (b) shut up about it. There can be no grey areas either the BNP is a legitimate political party or it's an illegal organisation.
Personally I don't like them, but I think keeping them legal is better so you can keep an eye on them. Banning them could well lead to their infiltrating other political parties. Although it sometimes seems they've already done that.
'Loitering with intent to use a pedestrian crossing.'
'smelling of foreign food'
'Urinating in a public convenience'
'Coughing without due care and attention.'
'Looking at me in a funny way'
'Walking on the cracks in the pavement,'
'Walking in a loud shirt in a built-up area during the hours of darkness,'
'Walking around with an offensive wife.'
'Possession of curly black hair and thick lips."'
Since when can you fire someone for their political affiliations? The BNP was a legitimate political party, last time I checked.
Quite a popular one too.
Oh, so the Home Office says it's unacceptable. What's next? Not allowed to vote Tory?
The BNP does actually make some sensible points, stuff that most of the UK would agree with if they actually read their policies and manifesto's. Unfortunately the BNP has been villanised to such a degree that anyone who supports them is automatically tagged a racist.
This country disgusts me - we are the only country who are so bothered about offending other people / religions that we are willing to sell our own beliefs, traditions and pride down the river just to stop us from looking the bad guys.
I am English -But I am not proud of being English for the very reasons stated above. This country and this government have stolen christmas from me - I am a Christian - not a strict one - but I still believe that Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Christ - why therefore in this countries 2nd Largest City can you not find one single "Merry Christmas" on the christmas decorations? Its disgusting! Yet when it was time for Eid celebrations the city took it upon itself to brightly decorate the streets / shopping malls with decorations and decrees of "Eid Mubarak".
I mean who is honestly offended by this? Certainly none of my Asian / Black / Chinese friends so why is it an issue? Heaven forbid someone might actually take offence at our culture - therefore (obviously) the only course of action is to ban our culture.
It makes me sick!
And by the way - no I am not a BNP supporter - Conservative all the way!
My first response was "Good, name and shame the fascists in our midst" - but on sober reflection, now I'm not so sure.
First off - I have no love for the BNP. My grandmother's Goan, my mother born in Calcutta, and I have a black sister. The BNP are an odious political entity - evolved (in the loosest possible sense) from the primordial ooze of Mosley's Blackshirts, thence the National Front/Combat 18 and others who value their 'white heritage'. All the BNP do is hide their repugnant, racist philosophy behind the mealy weasel-words of the spin doctor.
It's also worth noting that the term 'BNP Member' is absolutely synonymous with the term 'Moron'. These are people (again, I use this term in the loosest possible sense) who believe in a white Britain - as if a fifth-generation descendant of an immigrant is somehow responsible for the fact they're too stupid to hold down a job. They must be wracked with shame at the thought that if you trace human lineage back far enough, we're all from Africa.
So what we have is repellent inDUHviduals paying others to propound their abhorrent 'policies', and 'Activists' wandering around, dropping leaflets off when they can keep their knuckles from scraping on the ground and desperately hoping for a fight with someone who challenges them (I know, this happened to me in Sussex). So why not name and shame them?
Because as disgusting, discredited and sordid as they are, we should still have principles.
Full article at http://dungeekin.blogspot.com, comments welcome.
Paris because even she's not stupid enough to join the BNP
Agree or not with the policies of te BNP (I don't) how can someone be sacked for being a member of a political party that is allowed to stand in public elections? It is not a banned organisation so being a member is not illegal and should be of no consequence.
I've been laguhing at this everytime I see it, whether, as in this case, it relates to the police or not.
>We will not accept a police officer or police staff being a member of BNP
HTF will being a member or not of the BNP alter your personal views?
I'm vegetarian (OK, this is El Reg - contain your laughter). If I become a policeman, I might be less than lenient when investigating cases of animal cruelty etc. If I join the Vegetarian Society, I could still join the police but perhaps they would keep me off cases involving cruelty to animals ( I have no idea).
I guess it's a lot harder to accept a BNP member who hates coloured people, Jews, homosexuals etc. "minorities" are not contained, it's nearly impossible to assign duties where contact can be completely avoided. I can fully understand the restrictions on membership but would also expect there to be restrictions in all public employment (e.g. hospitals, social workers etc.).
Worse still is the case of a policeman who is racist/homophobic but hasn't bothered to register with the BNP.
Where is the relevance to the article ? This case is becoming about the leaking of the data and if it can be used whereas it should be raising concerns that there are members in all walks of life who have joined the BNP. As a society, we need to understand what has caused them to resort to such measures - is there genuine hatred because of the pigment in someone's skin or the fact they don't believe in Christ?
Out of interest, can our US readers tell us if membership of the Ku Klux Clan means you cannot join the US Police or other government jobs ? What would happen if a Klan membership list was leaked - would people get fired from Government jobs?
A number of professions (Social Workers, Teachers, Medical, Police Officers) have a very strong view that an appropriate set of values are a core competency. Included in those are generally some about the equal value of all recipients of the profession's services.
If a member of one of those professions is also a current, active member of a political party is antithetical to those values, it's reasonable to conclude that they have values that are incompatible with their membership of those professions.
I just wanted to use the title really. It is nice to see the boot on the other foot, let's face it another annual bonfire night can't be a bad thing.
So the leader went on national news and pretty much confirmed the authenticity of the list?
That's an own goal of pretty staggering proportions; we always suspected that the BNP were The Thick Party - it's nice to see it confirmed.
Another reason why All You Fascists [Are] Bound to Lose
(Paris: Positively MENSA-material by comparison)
Oh for fuck's sake.
Policemen and teachers need to be able to deal with people of all backgrounds and nationalities equally. Membership in the BNP is quite blatantly stating that you are incapable of doing that.
And to all the BNP shitbags climbing out of the woodwork with your thinly-veilled "I find them detestable, but..." tripe, I suggest ten seconds of doing some bloody research. You Nazi bastards.
This is proven by the fact that they can't keep private data out of the hands of criminals for more than fifteen minutes.
Oh, really? So, when I get home and look at the list (I'm to cautious to do it here) I'll see plenty of Singhs, Goldsteins, Saars, Nowaks, Fernandezs...
Give me a fucking break -- they're racist wankers.
No one should be sacked or repremanded due to a belief, thought or joining a legal entity that agrees with their beliefs. Allowing this to happen opens the door to pandora's box of George Orwells 1984 and their thought police. We have already gone to far down that route!
nah, i'm no racist, i dont really like anyone, just don't agree with this particular violation of people's privacy
and @Re: it's ridiculous
didn't realise he'd confirmed it, but as for a random list not getting any publicity, i'm pretty sure if I were to mail something in to the daily mirror or some other shitty tabloid on a BNP letterhead, a fiver says it would get a mention
@Richard Cartledge :14.39
"So, if you want someone sacking who is a Police Offcier, sailor or your local councillor. Join them up to the BNP as a gift. Well worth £25 IMHO."
Would the same apply to MPs? I can think of a few prominent ones where it would be well worth the money.
Provided their employment contract properly lays out what political activities they are and are not allowed to engage in, and they are required to state they meet this obligation on joining.
When the jackboot-club membership comes to light, their employment contract becomes void and its cardbox box time.
Then they are free to go and practice their "free speech" wherever they see fit.
Christmas hasn't been stolen from you. Christians have hijacked various other winter and pagen festivals, stuck son-of-your-sky-fairy on the front cover,and sold it as "Christmas".
You are welcome to have a festival in honour of your Miracle Man at this time of year if you wish, but please don't pretend (or believe) that Christmas was the original festival in winter.
It's hard to feel "proud to be human" too, when we continue to screw ourselves thanks to various groups arguing whose sky-fairy is the best.
Paris...she might be rubbish, but at least she exists.
An interesting argument. However, just because someone belongs to a political party, or is at least on their membership list, doesn't mean they agree with ALL or even MOST of that party's actions or tactics. The might only agree with one or two lines in the party manifesto. Hell, I know a few people who, out of curiosity, have joined every political party in order to see what kind of material the members get. I for one can think of several valid reasons for a poilce officer to join a legal but otherwise reprehensible political party, none of which involve that officer agreeing with them.
So although your argument is perhaps one of the more cogent, it still doesn't hold water. Either the UK is a free nation where political expression is legal, or it's nothing more than a Orwellian "New World" full of double speak when it comes to actual freedom.
"Ooo, we're just misunderstood, the BNP don't intimidate people and aren't really racist, they're all nice and cuddly and mainstream. White people are the persecuted minority!"
Speaking as someone who's seen that lovely, friendly, warm-and-fuzzy Nazi site 'Redwatch', it kinda screws up the right-wing arguments about intimidation.
And they're complaining about not being allowed to do certain jobs? If these knobbers ever got any form of real power, they'd be making sure that people weren't even allowed to be in this country because of their melanin levels, much less working!
Morons one and all.
So the list is out - I don't think we should publicise it, but if an employer (especially one which is obliged to treat everyone as equals regardless of skin tone) gets hold of it and sacks you, I've got no sympathy. You joined the Nazi Party, you live with the consequences.