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back to article Armed cops ice South London devil dog

Armed police officers yesterday shot dead a devil dog which attacked four people during a uncontrolled rampage in Mitcham, South London. According to the Telegraph, the terrier (breed unspecified) escaped from its owner's garden in South Lodge Avenue through a hole in the fence. It promptly "bit a young child’s leg at around 11: …

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IT Angle

Well done plod.

If only they were as thorough in identifying electricians.

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Anonymous Coward

Sometime bads stuff happens and it's nobodies fault

"The dog's owner, a 29-year-old woman, was arrested and stands accused of "possessing a dog dangerously out of control"."

Quick something bad has happened, someone must be punished! Anyone! We must arrest someone quick, even if they had no direct influence over the bad thing, or any causal link to it.

TV presenter's girlfriend dies? Quick arrest him for man slaughter!

Mother loses her children in house fire? Slap the bitch in jail.

Lorry driver doesn't notice cars ahead and crashes? Man that is so a 'pound-them-in-the-ass prison time' offence.

Officer shoots mexican repeatedly, then leaks a bunch of lies about him to smear him.... erm no one's to blame, it's just one of those things, sometimes bad things happen.... maybe it will happen again.

There's nothing to indicate she had any warning the dog would go beserk, or any control once it had gone beserk, therefore she's not negligent. Sometimes bad things happen and it's not anyones fault.

I know Blair introduced the concept of eye-for-eye tooth-for-tooth, so someone must be punished wherever there is a victim, but he was an ass who hid his religious fanaticism because it would make him unelectable. It does not make sense to punish people who are not the causal link to a problem. Because punishing them will not fix the problem.

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Coat

Satanic mutt?

As far as I can tell, no-one heard the dog saying mass backwards and no-one heard it giving thanks to satan for it's escape. So how do we know it was satanic? Easy, the witchsmeller persuivant identified it from the police helicopter.

Mine's the coat with the air pistol and the darts tipped with lsd in the pocket.

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Stop

firearms officers popped a cap in the satanic mutt's ass

So, any news on the dog's donkey that was shot?

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Coat

Fair enough

This sort of stuff is illegal under the prevention of terrierism act.

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IT Angle

I can't believe you missed the name of the dog ....

"asbo" - says it all really

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Go

Grrr

Lets hope that the dog doesn't come bark from the dead...

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Anonymous Coward

Reason

Perhaps it went on a rampage fuelled by the desire to find a small child with whom to share a packet of crisps? After all, I hear these breeds are normally extremely gentle and docile...

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Woman not to blame?!?

"There's nothing to indicate she had any warning the dog would go beserk, or any control once it had gone beserk, therefore she's not negligent. Sometimes bad things happen and it's not anyones fault."

The dog escaped. She's at fault for that at the very least.

The dog was a breed that is incredibly dangerous if badly trained or trained to injure/kill. The dog was called 'Asbo'. I doubt this was a well trained, friendly, soppy pooch.

Damn right she gets prosecuted for this! She couldn't control a dangerous animal.

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The owner is responsible

"There's nothing to indicate she had any warning the dog would go beserk, or any control once it had gone beserk, therefore she's not negligent. Sometimes bad things happen and it's not anyones fault."

There are always signs with dogs that the owners should pick up on if they are responsible dog owners. Very very few dogs "just go berserk" without any warning.

"If a dog is dangerously out of control in a public place - then the owner or the person in charge of the dog is guilty of an offence, or, if the dog while so out of control injures any person, an aggravated offence under the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991. In proceedings against a person who is the owner of a dog but at the material time was not in charge of it, it should be a defence for the accused to prove that the dog was at the material time in the charge of a person whom he reasonably believed to be a fit and proper person to be in charge of it."

I threatened to shoot a neighbours dog (if I saw it on my property again) after it escaped yet again from their garden and attacked and killed 3 of our chickens and he said "I was at work when it happened, how could I be responsible?".

Just about sums it up really!

Oh and By the way, I am licensed firearms owner and well within my right to shoot a dog worrying or attacking my livestock as per: The Dogs (Protection of Livestock) Act 1953 if I can't stop it by other means. And there is no way I am going to try and grab a staff that is running wild round my land as I will get bitten.

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Cost ?

I wonder what the combined cost of all those armed officers being sent to the scene was ?

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Happy

Popped a cap in it's ass?

Why on earth would they insert some headwear into a donkey?

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Flame

I think we punish the wrong animal

Instead of muzzling and neutering the dog - perhaps we should look at muzzling and neutering the owners of out of control dogs!

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inbred mutants

Oddly enough some evidence from various dog clubs suggests that pure bred dogs are more likely to suffer the effects of brain damage due to cancer etc and "go wild without notice".

I have spoken to owners that have been savanged by dogs due to undetected cancers affecting thier blood checmistry/brains and making them attack people/thing with no warning whatsover. The dogs were put down, died in the attempt to kill the owner or died very shortly afterwards while being rushed to the vets.

So, I think "very very" becomes "happens quite a bit with certain breeds".

Jacqui

Back onto the IT angle - I offered to provide the database facilities (software, hardware and support services) to allow the kennel club to track births and deaths (and causes) information (for free!) but they declined.

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Oh all right

I'll respond to the troll:

TV presenter's girlfriend dies? Quick arrest him for man slaughter!

I believe they questioned him and then released him, pretty sure he wasn't arrested.

Mother loses her children in house fire? Slap the bitch in jail.

She'd left her kids unattended in a house which they promptly burn't down, it's illegal to leave children under the age of 13 unattended for exactly that reason.

Lorry driver doesn't notice cars ahead and crashes? Man that is so a 'pound-them-in-the-ass prison time' offence.

Yes, it's called driving without due care and attention and should be vehicular manslaughter in the case of killing someone, again, it's called the law.

To be honest it sounds like another chav with a rampaging pitbull who simply needs to be locked away regardless of the dog, simply for the good of society.

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Happy

@Hedley Phillips

looking forward to seeing it on poochtube =)

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Black Helicopters

Dog Borstal

There are no bad dogs, just bad owners.

Owners should not let their animals watch tv after 9pm or play violent video games. Or listen to death metal.

Nominative determinism works via sympathetic magic.

Witchfinders in helicopters? Nice idea, but you generally detect witches by their smell and check for a third nipple where sup their familiar. You need a big nose to be a witchfinder.

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@ abigsmurf

Well said - saved me the bother.

She owns it, she's responsible.

And the dogs name - 'Asbo' (pointed out in earlier post), says it all really.

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Paris Hilton

Ass

May I take this opportunity to be the first person to make a pun on the word "ass", and the way that it means "bottom" in the United States, but "donkey" in the United Kingdom, except that I think it also means donkey in the United States as well, but we'll let that lie.

Somewhere in the universe there is a world where donkeys are in charge; I wonder if they have a word that means bottom and human being at the same time?

Also, they can't make the aeroplanes out of the stuff they use to make the black box, because if they did the aeroplanes would be too heavy. "Digital VERSATILE Disc". And most of the images on Google Earth were taken from AEROPLANES, not satellites.

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@Eddie Edwards

"Prevention of Terrierism Act!"

You owe me a keyboard, you mongrel!

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Coat

Facial injuries?

Facial injuries from a terrier? I have an image of a red eyed rabid Yorkshire terrier being hurled at passers-by, by it's equally evil owner. Either that or the devilish hound came upon the unwary whilst they slept on the ground.

Thank you - mines the one with a Training your dog by Barbara Woodhouse in one pocket and a hockey mask in the other

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IT Angle

Every dog allowed ONE bite

It is my understanding that the legal position is, and has been for a very long time (before I was born!), that any dog is allowed ONE bite. If, after that bite, it bites again, then it is liable to be destroyed. The reasoning is straightforward; until the first bite, the owner couldn't be sure that the dog was indeed liable to bite people. After the first bite, it is the owner's responsibility to ensure that suitable precautions are taken to restrain the dog concerned.

Of course, dogs employed as guard dogs are exempt from this provision, as it is part of their duty and training to bite under some circumstances.

Note that the Dangerous Breeds act is irrelevant to this case; the dog was a terrier, which is not a dangerous breed.

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(Written by Reg staff)

Re: Oh all right

It's the usual irresponsibility on the part of an idiot who at best doesn't know any better and at worst doesn't give a flying fuck for anyone else or their own dog (although they'll fight long and hard and whinily to keep them, just out of possessiveness). Since pit bulls are (pointlessly) banned here, it's only going to be the dodgy who own or breed them (excepting maybe one or two ornery defiant dog lover types who know what they're doing and are exceptionally careful not to be found out/fall afoul of the law, etc).

Dodgy breeders breed dodgy dogs, which they'll flog to people who barely know one end of a dog from another, let alone what breed it is, and/or have no idea of the law, or to people who fancy owning an illicit macho beast. So it's dogs which would need very careful handling ending up with people who can barely feed themselves.

This one wasn't even a year old, it was a puppy - about the same age as the one in the Ellie Lawrenson case. And it was called Asbo, for fucksakes. These attacks tend to be just another symptom of a generally chaotic, dysfunctional existence. Speaking of which, the mother of Archie-Lee Hirst (killed by dog last year) just got let off for slashing her mate's face with scissors - of course she's grief-stricken, but not all the grief-stricken end up being arrested for assault.

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Flame

@AC "Sometime bads stuff happens"

You bet I want someone prosecuted if a dumb ass lorry driver crashes into my car 'coz he "didn't notice it". The dick is supposed to look ahead!

Same with every single example you gave. The TV presenter? How do you know the police did not have evidence he night have done it? An yes, if you own pets/livestock/vehicles/property you are fucking RESPONSIBLE for it, so if your dog bites the head off someone or your bull runs into a car you might be prosecuted for it.

Or are you a lawtard?

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(Written by Reg staff)

oh, and Paul

I believe it was a pit bull terrier, which may or may not be more dangerous than other breeds depending on various factors, but our rather ill-thought-out law which you incorrectly cite defines it as such.

And there are quite a few types of terrier, in fact. So.

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Flame

What about the baby?

Well the public story is that the dog dragged a baby for 50 yards and the baby was only rescued when the bus driver intervened.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7660507.stm

I can only think that this story was published with a very anti-police (oooh, the police are trigger happy) aim in mind, when it is clear that the dog was dangerous and clearly had to be shot after its maiming spree.

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Go

Give us a break

Of course it was the owners fault.

An animals behaviour is set by its' upbringing.

Have none of you every watched 'Dog Borstal' or the 'Dog Whisperer'?

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Coat

@Ashley Pomeroy

"Somewhere in the universe there is a world where donkeys are in charge; I wonder if they have a word that means bottom and human being at the same time?"

Yes indeed.

"Thatcher"

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The Dog's Wotsits

No Taser, no pepper spray or CS gas? Nah, our London bobbies are tougher than the Taffs who are just a bunch of sheep shockers. All that's missing is a big pile of cardboard boxes.

ps, AC -- is it just that 'Chav' is the last social grouping that can be slagged off and derided that allows you to point and feel so superior? There's a lot of dodgy doggies in parts of the black community (as well as others) - now, where would you be if it belonged to one of them?

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Shot Like a Junkyard Dog

You don't see that happening with cats, do you? No, exactly.

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Law
Linux

@ sarah

Dog lover per chance??? Finally the dominatrix's passion for dog collars and leashes finally explained!! ;)

I've been attacked several times as a child... I was bought up on what I would now consider to be a dodgy council estate - people who could barely say their own name were allowed to own dogs twice their size and would therefore let them become violent and nasty dogs.

Fair enough - some breeds maybe worse than others, and I'm not sure a dangerous dogs lists should be in force - but I think the majority of bad dogs are by bad owners. Maybe instead of arresting bad owners after their dogs hurt people, anybody who is reported to have a nasty dog or be crap owners should be required to attend an assessment day to see if they have the general intelligence and right frame of mind to own any dog. Much the same as anybody accused of being a dodgy parent is normally investigated.

Penguins... because they can bite too!!

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Not necessarily the down to the owner.

ANY dog can "go crazy" or snap at any time. The notion that they cannot is foolish and naive as you cannot be sure what will set an animal off, unless you have a telepathic link with your house pets?

That's why only an idiot would leave a dog unattended with a child -- even one that "loves kids" -- let alone walk it off-lead in public.

In this case it sounds like a dodgy breed and an owner that didn't take enough care (or have the sense not to have this animal in the first place, though the description I read was that this person was fostering the animal) to secure it.

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(Written by Reg staff)

Re: Shot Like a Junkyard Dog

If cats were bigger, they'd kill us all. You know I'm right.

Oh and Phud, that's a pretty skanky argument and I suspect you know it. The jury's still out on 'chav' and of course it gets tossed at people who don't deserve it, but the fact remains we're talking about A Certain Section Of Society, whatever you want to call them. Anyone who suggests this is the entirety of the working class is a twat. But I don't think anyone's saying that.

Meh.

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Re: Re: Shot Like a Junkyard Dog

Sarah: "Anyone who suggests this is the entirety of the working class is a twat."

I concur, especially since most of the undesirables we're talking about do NOT work. My grandparents and other relatives of mine are/were working class, meaning crappy jobs in industry, and they would be mortified to be associated with any of the chavness on display nowadays.

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@ Sarah Bee

Good points made.

A well bred and well owned dog can be great whatever the breed.

We tend to forget that the large or powerful dogs have generally been developed as working dogs in some regard - guarding, hunting etc.

What do we really expect when chav breeders carelessly inbreed powerful animals then flog them to nobs who don't know what they've bought and care even less - as long as it gets them 'respect'.

The responsibility for owning a dog goes all the way from carefully selecting a suitable breed from a good breeder to ensuring the animal is properly socialised, exercised, disciplined and maintained. And clearing its' crap up.

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Unhappy

All well and good

but where's the exclusive Playmobil reenactment?

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Gates Horns

oh, one more thing ...

How can the woman be charged with possession of a dog out of control, when the story makes it clear that the dog was possessed by Satan (or one if his various minions)? Where's the justice in all this? Shouldn't Satan be up on charges?

-evil billg, as he may well have been in possession of the dog at the time of the attack

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Nice people you have in the UK

Unlike all our friendly, peace loving folk here in South Africa.

Of course, if a dog gets out of control here, we don't need no stinkin' cops to shoot it - we do that ourselves.

pah.

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Silver badge

Yeah but no but yeah but no but . .

"Oh and Phud, that's a pretty skanky argument and I suspect you know it."

Not entirely skanky as there's no need to chuck labels on just for the sake of it. It leads to all sorts of assumptions and the inevitable 'well, you know what they're like' which leads to the usual sheep mentality. That's what I saw in the posting - the inclusion/exclusion game.

(although we know that all Apple fanbois are . . .)

But, yes, I agree that complete twats are classless.

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When I t'were a lad...

...I remember we had dog licenses.

We don't have those any more. Oh no, far too intrusive, bureaucratic, expensive, etc. (or whatever)

BUT! I.D. cards, childrens database, road tolls.....worth every speculative penny!

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@elFatBob

"The responsibility for owning a dog goes all the way from carefully selecting a suitable breed from a good breeder to ensuring the animal is properly socialised, exercised, disciplined and maintained. And clearing its' crap up."

Ditto for sprog; lest you wind up with Chav AND asbo. No wonder there's so blinkin' many of 'em. No suitable breeding, socializing, disciplining, or training.

Back in my cave days we lived in an area where the local hillbillies (a version of American chav) used to sic their white german shepherds on us whilst we rode our bicycles down the road. Can't tell you how many times I was bit by them, but I know if my dad had had a working gun he would have cleaned them (the hillbillies) out. His (and my own) opine was that the dogs weren't at fault.

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re: Not necessarily the down to the owner.

But that's a very rare and specific circumstance.

We aren't going to stiff the owner, you know.

And in the general case, dogs act like we teach them to act. Small yappy pork-pie dogs owned by senile old biddies who dance to its every need are doing so because they think THEY are the boss of these weird two-legged dogs. Slobbery dogs are playing with their fellow puppies (even though they lack tails and walk on their hind legs for a laugh).

And you can have your dog dangerous because you like it that way.

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re: oh, one more thing ...

Uh, she still owns the dog even if she's not there.

Else the dog pound would have things easy. Take the dog off you and you are no longer in possession of the dog and so it should be impounded. You can pick your mutt up later for a £50 penalty fee or give me £30 now and we'll call it quits.

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Go

re: inbred mutants

Of course the Kennel Club don't want study done of pedigree health problems - the major finding would be that the breeding methods adopted by KC members reinforced those problems - deliberately breeding for skulls too small for the brain (Cavalier spaniels), faces so deformed that breathing is dificult (Pekes) and painful and debilitating deformities which are considered to be valuable by showers (various breeds).

And as for the GRA - their attitude towards greyhounds - GRRRRRRRRRRRRR

So its not just chavs that are unfit to have animals trusted to their care.

However - there is no evidence to show that Pitbulls (or any other terrier breeds that get such a bad press) when properly bred and cared for are any more unpredictable or aggressive than any other breed - it is simply that their physique makes them so dangerous when left in the hand of ChavTards for whom 'responsibility' is an awfully long and difficult word.

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Bronze badge

Devil Dog?

While the events recounted in the story are tragic, the title chosen for the story gave me a bit of a chuckle, since the term "devil dog" is also the colloqual term for what is technically known as a Fun-Sized Mobile Agony and Death Dispenser, part of the defenses of Castle Heterodyne as chronicled in the pages of the famed Girl Genius webcomic of Phil and Kaja Foglio.

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Silver badge

Canis lupus familiaris

The main problem in almost all of these cases is that the critter in question is acquired as a fashion accessory. It's not allowed to be a dog. It's a thing, like a handbag or a pair of shoes or 24 inch rims and low profile tires on an SUV[1].

Unfortunately, dogs are not just things. They are dogs. A subspecies of the wolf. They can't think like humans, rather they are genetically programmed to react to given situations. They ALWAYS react the same way[2] ... When people try to get them to react in a manor which isn't dog-like, the dog gets confused. Thinking of your dog as family member, or a baby, or a child is dangerous. It's not. It's a dog. Remember that, and act accordingly.

Often that confusion leads to a "who is in charge?" situation in their fuzzy little minds. All dogs want to be a part of a pack. All packs need a pack leader. No dog WANTS to be "in charge", but if nobody else is obviously the leader, dog genetics kick in. The dog takes over.

Dogs are also extremely good at picking up on body language and "mood" (for want of a better word ... emotion would confer too much humanity on them). If an owner shows fear of their breed of choice, or fear of how the dog will react in a given situation, chances are good that the dog will become afraid. NOT afraid of the owner (who feeds and shelters the dog), but rather a fear of the world in general.

This is why dogs often become perceived as "vicious" ... They normally aren't actually vicious, they are scared, and attempting to protect what they view as their pack and territory from whatever they see as "dangerous". BECAUSE THEIR OWNER IS NOT THE JOB!

SO ... got an obnoxious yap-dog? Does your dog strain at the lead, and attempt to "attack" strangers and other animals? Stop jerking on the lead. Instead try to put a foot on the bight (to keep the dog's head down[4]), and maneuver yourself to put yourself between your dog and the perceived problem. Put your back to the "problem" (unless it really is dangerous ...). Tell your dog, in a quiet, calm, rational voice (and state of mind, if you can manage it) "It's OK, fido, I have things under control <sfsf>".

Do this EVERY TIME. Let your dog know YOU have things under control. Become the leader. Your dog will respect you for it ... and will become a LOT easier to train.

If the dog is prone to barking at "stuff" on the other side of the fence, I advise walking the dog on-lead in your own garden when he's doing his business and use the above. The younger the dog, the faster you'll get results. For best results, be monotonously consistent.

Not that I have an opinion or anything ...

--

[1] THERE's a good idea ... Make it ride even more like a truck ...

[2] The key to good dog training: Let 'em be a dog!

[3] Contrary to popular belief, wolves aren't vicious amongst themselves ... They rarely bite each other. When you think about it, this makes sense ... if one wolf bites another, it will in turn get bit. And in the wild, with no veterinarians, deep puncture wounds lead to death. Any viciousness is self-canceling. Dogs are the same ... What looks like horrendous fighting is usually just harmless threats, the snapping looks bad but rarely connects. All the dogs are doing is figuring out who is where in the pack hierarchy.

[4] Pulling your dog's head up is bad. To another dog, a head-up attitude, showing off the chest & demonstrating how big he is is an aggressive stance. I've seen far too many dogs get bit because their owner made them look aggressive to another dog ...

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Bronze badge

Wuff Justice

I can't help thinking that now British cops have a lot of guns, they tend to use them a little too often.

If the article is true and there were scores of cops and a chopper, they must have had enough time to consider a trank gun.

If, the plod are smart enough to have ever considered any thing like that in the first place. Fire arms in a public place are dangerous ( ask any policeman) as are armed cops ( ask any Brazilian). As such any use of firearms in public should be a definitive last resort.

Selected nicks having access to trank guns would enable a relatively safe response to dangerous animals and double up for intractable asbo s of the human variety.

I have had a little to do with the training of cops in the past and found most of them that apply to be a `shot´ are wannabe Rambos, so beware collateral damage becoming more common.

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Anonymous Coward

Spray Paint?

I recently painted the upstairs neighbors dog with half a can as they (the idiot owners) are too dysfunctional to control this rather alarming pooch (Rottweiler), I stopped short of dispatching it to oblivion as the poor thing could not see, smell or bite but I will the next time it's loose and unsupervised in the staircase as I do not appreciate meeting aggressive and unsupervised pets while half-awake on my way to work.

Disclaimer : I'm often very unsociable until the fifth cup of coffee.

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@ Canus Lupus

Jake, you are clearly a dog lover who has bothered to truly understand dogs, how unusual!

@ Spray paint. You are a total arsehole, I hope the next time the dog meets you, it bites you in the goolies and that is less than you deserve. The problem is the owner, try sorting him out with a little forethought and if necessary a can of paint. If I had seen you spray paint a dog in the face I would have kicked you down the stairs.

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A bus driver??

What was it doing on a bus?? Trying to make a get-away?

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