back to article Doctors rally for right to call UK.gov quangonista a 'sh*t'

A junior doctor has been suspended by academic authorities for a month for branding a senior medical establishment figure a "fucking shit" on a web forum. The trainee surgeon at the centre of the controversy, known to supporters as "Dr Scot Junior", works at Inverness' Raigmore Hospital. He laid the "shit" charge against …

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Stop

This is another example of where the GMC gets it wrong

As a junior doctor he is technically still "in training". All this means is that he will miss out on a part of the syllabus that might be relevant to some patient he operates on in a few years time, assuming that otherwise he qualifies and becomes a member of his appropriate surgical college. Not good for the patient, but nice for future lawyers.

Of course if missing this bit of the syllabus means he doesnt pass the exams to qualify, then that's all right, the taxpayer is just out of the quarter million or so his training costs and the unfortunate candidate is also out several tens of thousands and a few years of his life.

Proportionate?

I have to post AC as I am dealing with a GMC situation where no-one with authority has the courage to make a decision in a minor non-clinical matter, just in case in years to come it is seen with hindsight as the wrong one even though the GMCs own advisors have given specific recommendations. This has caused the shutdown of a surgical unit, the loss of millions of pounds and the waste of several doctors training, and is unlikely to be rectified.

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Sam

Fine tuning

"Last year, it meant thousands of newly-qualified junior doctors were unable to find work and hospitals were unable to recruit the staff they needed."

So it should read "Fucking USELESS shit"?

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Al
Paris Hilton

Smart move

... after all, we've got so many doctors it's OK to stop one working because he has robust opinions.

The Scottish side of the medical profession has become riddled with a culture of turning people in for trivial transgressions and generally buggering up things for them. This latest episode is really no surprise. While it's a matter of debate whether the esteemed Dame is indeed a 'sh!t', the actions of her acolytes in defending her from harsh words are undoubtedly 'sh!tty'.

Paris, because she's not too bright either.

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Boffin

@SNAFU

Situation normal:

A government formed from the soi-disant "liberal elite" will always perpetuate its own quangocracy, and treat the rest of us as the ungrateful hoi-polloi that we are:- ungrateful that is, for their munificence in deigning to rule us in every way and in every aspect of our lives, professional and personal, since they are the only ones who can understand all the complex issues which are far too much for our little brains to possibly comprehend.

We just have to stand back and let Nanny decide, 'cos Nanny knows best.

It is no accident that we are ever increasingly subject to petty irritations - bin police, musn't smoke anywhere, can't bring up your own children your own way etc. - petty rules similar in concept to these have been used in the military for eons.

Why?

Because they inculcate a culture which discourages initiative and fosters unthinking obedience. We are just little sheep whose only value is as taxable labour units who are given the illusion of democracy at election times. Our system ensures we can only appear to choose which nanny, rather than whether to have a nanny...

See you in 42 days, but of course in the spirit of the Doctor's re-suspension, after 30 seconds of freedom I will probably be subject to another 42 days spent "assisting" the nannies...

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So...

How many people here would expect to keep their job if they publicly branded a senior manager of their company as a "fucking shit", I'd expect at least a final written warning if I did such a thing. Probably a black bagging.

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Pirate

@Sam

> So it should read "Fucking USELESS shit"?

Almost. "Fucking USELESS VINDICTIVE shit" is closer.

Toodle pip.

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Anonymous Coward

What can you expect... !

And we wonder why Fujitsu want out of the NHS contract .. !

If these are the sort of people they are having to deal with on a daily basis then they should get there £700 Million.

With all the trouble she caused why wasn't she stripped of her title ?

More civil servant mentality, I have encountered it a number of times and everytime, they are complete shits.

One told me that their network was fine, but they had all internal machines having legit class C ip addresses and web servers all over the place and security leaking like the titanic.

Another was the IT Manager who couldn't turn his pc on and did not any new electronic devices as he did not believe in them!

The last one was a IT security manager who felt that having a pc was not necessary to his job and firewalls just a distasteful problem.

They should re-instate him and suspend her.

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Stop

Is this manager a complete idiot?

Management 101: If someone were to post to an internal newsgroup saying that I was a sh*t, I'd hope my reaction, at least after a cup of tea :-), would be to try to work out why someone who is presumably educated, well-motivated and gives a toss (because usually that language is only used by people who actually care...) felt that such an outburst was their only remaining option.

If (a) I'm in charge, (b) I've pissed them off and (c) they feel they're powerless to do anything about it, then as a manager I should be really concerned. If I think I'm doing the right thing, why does one of my staff think I'm a shit?

Or, right, of course, I could just gag them, screw their career and turn them into a martyr. That would the the NuLab way, after all.

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Pirate

He was pretty tame...

Knowing a couple of people affected by these changes, I'd say he was being pretty generous with his comments. The mere mention of her name is enough to turn gentle, kind, caring people who just want to help and heal, into rabid psychotics foaming at the mouth with a taste for human flesh. Y'know, kinda like saying "Jaqui Smith" at a Liberty /Amnesty convention...

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Proportionate

Damaging thousands of doctors' careers and lives, and stopping them treating the patients who need them - full marks!

Calling someone who has done this a shit - off with his head!

The most that one can hope for is that Professor Shit Carol Black will carry that description permanently, since she has herself made certain that everyone knows about it.

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Linux

Thankyou to all my medical friends

This post is to thank all the medical bloggers who have worked tirelessly to raise the awareness of this vital story. They have all written anonymously due to the risk to their careers. Those brave bloggers who have gone against the establishment are as follows

1. http://www.witchdoctor.wordpress.com

2. http://www.thejobbingdoctor.blogspot.com

3. http://www.drrant.net.

4. http://www.doctorbloggs.blogspot.com

We would also like to thank our masked fly by night stranger who has supplied us vital information from Inverness. This also includes the Flying Scotsman.

The blogger who has sat up tirelessly night after night is http://www.witchdoctor.wordpress.com

Our thanks to Google UK for keeping our websites up despite threats.

Dr Rita Pal

http://www.nhsexposedblog.blogspot.com

http://www.ward87.blogspot.com

http://www.nhsexposed.com

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Joke

plagiarism

The problem here is that he has dishonestly claimed these comments were his own work. Clearly he is plagiarising these words from the wider community of doctors who have been saying this for years.

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Paris Hilton

Coffee?

"No one wishes to curtail doctors' right to free speech. But it is right that, as in any other walk of life, they do so without recourse to unrestrained personal abuse."....

Er..as opposed to the loft circles of the medical profession, in many walks of life particularly in those with exposure to the general public, if you act like a useless wanker then you expect to be called a useless wanker. If you don't your in for a nasty surprise!!

Fuckard.

Paris, cos' she's not called dumb for nothing!

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Coat

Sledgehammers... Nuts

It's a bit disappointing that they couldn't have just moderated the comment, but knowing Govern-mental IT this feature probably wasn't written into the contract.

If it's the "unrestrained abuse" rather than the swearing that they take issue with, then it sounds as though he may have been pretty restrained in relation to his true feelings if it's got to the point where he's using those kind of terms on a professional forum. Would calling the Dame a copulating stool have been OK? I thought doctors were supposed to be famous for their veiled invective; does this only come to fruition once training is complete?

Ooh, white & strappy at the arms...

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Anonymous Coward

Open Door Policy

Does the NHS not operate an "open door" policy? This guy could then have used that open door and slammed it shut on this fuckwits head.

Why do all our government departments insist on promoting those people who are clearly incompentent and then defend them when it's proven that they're utter bollocks at the job they've been given. Can we not outsource Government management to the Chinese? I hear they operate some excellent re-education camps for those people who fail at their jobs...

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Paris Hilton

Wimin !!

Not much evidence of a glass ceiling in the sensitive upper reaches of the medical profession then !

Paris well , her and glass ceilings .... interesting combo.

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(Written by Reg staff)

Re: Wimin !!

Um, I'm not sure I'd extrapolate that much, myself.

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Joke

Oh Dear...

If the medical powers-that-be hadn't made such a big hissy fit out of this (ie, if the Professor Dame had shown a little more spine and treated the comment with the upper class contempt her title entitles her to) then all this would've blown over unnoticed outside of the 'profession'.

But now the 'shit' may stick, and stink, for some considerable time (ie, next week)

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rhi

Comment moderation

The comment was indeed moderated within a few hours. But those who suspended the doctor did not report the comment to the forum moderators, using a hyperlink that's obviously placed after every post.

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Anonymous Coward

Curbing Free speech - Long Term Problem

I don't know, it seems a surprise to the UK that a doctor's livelihood can be curbed due to a critical remark. It is not so much the swearing but the fact that Dr Scot Jnr challenged Carol Black. The problem is that gradually the elite in the profession have always ruled. Since 2006 there have been a new breed of doctors - those wiling to speak out against the system.

Prior to 2006, all of us who challenged leading figures in the establishment were sidelined. When I set up nhsexposed.com, the medical profession were up in arms. The site was attacked and it went on until we hosted it away from the UK.

My total of investigations against me can be summarised as follows. I don't actually expect many people to pay much attention to this. I should clarify that I hardly swear online and none of these investigations were related to such language. They were though related to the fact that the GMC have attempted repeatedly to silence me. I know this because we are due for a judicial review on the subject of free speech. The threat of work damage is always used on the junior doctor who have stepped out of line. It is called the sword of damocles.

So to run down the free speech curbing in my own case.

1. First investigation at the GMC [2001]

For writing a critical letter to the GMC. I was investigated covertly for potential mental illness. I took the GMC to court and won the strike out application in 2005. The GMC was deemed to be a totalitarian regime by Harris HHJ. During the court hearing, the GMC brought in copies of my website, the fact I read Stephen King and one typographical error as the high water mark of their case.

The GMC apologised in writing for leaking wrong data that was affecting my employment prospects. The GMC later admitted that they had no concerns about my mental health at all.

2. Second investigation - Woodman v Pal [2003]

Dr Woodman of Doctors.net.uk had complained to the GMC stating that I had defamed him. I was subjected to a 8 month investigation. I was cleared. In 2007, the GMC wrote in a letter that " They did not consider defamation complaints".

3. Third Investigation. Concerning a link [ see related links section]. The GMC started to investigate me due to a link to a public document. It lost me my job, my reference and probably the rest of my medical career. I was cleared after about 6 months of legal wrangling. The case is subject to judicial review and it is understood to be the first JR against the GMC by a doctor concerning the issue of free speech.

So, there we have it. Curbing free speech is not a new thing and never has been.

Regards

Dr Rita Pal

[ banned from Doctors.net.uk for my controverial views].

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Thumb Up

useful dietary advice for those going walking in the highlands

at dr rant:

http://www.drrant.net/2008/09/anyone-for-hemlock.html

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Heart

Women again? Bullying women no less

This isnt new you know

I almost got a conviction due to the perjury and perversion of the course of justice carried out by a female chief executive of a large mental health and social care trust in London.

She got six HR people to lie on their statements to the police but I managed to make sure she would have to turn up and lie under oath at the magistrates court. I had been bullied by the medical director, and she was her line manager...... I would have sung like a canary at court, and guess what I even accused them of perjury on the police tape.

The CPS dropped the charges as not being in the public interest...... Now who says that the government aren't corrupt lying devious fucking shits?

Carol Black You are officially and in the minds of everyone a fucking vindictive little shit

HNL

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RW
Coat

Highly un-PC sexist bewonderment

Why is it that the biggest asses, the most vindictive petty dictators, the most awful administrators that NuLabour has foisted on the hapless, suffering British body politic always seem to be women?

My guess: because these ladies have reached positions of importance solely because of their sex, not their qualifications. They are unqualified for the responsibilities they have, they are in over their heads, they know it, and they fight back tooth and nail against anyone so bold as to point out their incurable shortcomings.

Yes, I'm a horrible wicked unrepentant sexist, but I'm going to buy Sarah Bee a bustier made of purple emu skin, so I'm immune to retribution.

Now where's my emu skin overcoat?

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Gates Halo

@Fraser

To be more accurate with the analogy though, what would you expect if you publicly called someone with more experience in your chosen field of expertise a "fucking shit"? No direct CoC, just someone else in the industry.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: "would you expect to keep your job" comments

Would you expect to keep your job if you were as useless as this fucking shit, Professor Dame Carol Black?

I'm not a doctor, so that should be safe enough for me.

Anon anyway. Can't be too careful.

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Pirate

watch your back(side)!!!

40 years ago my Saturday job was to wash the Rolls Royce of the female Dean of a London medical college. Her house backed onto Hampstead Heath.

She decided that a mature tree in the park blocked her view so she drilled a hole in it and injected it with cyanide. Nice view now!

Don't piss off woman like this, oh someone at door.......

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Anonymous Coward

baffled

Why are the British so down on fox hunting, yet it is acceptable to run quangoes?

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terrible abuse of power

A terrible example of abuse of power by those in power against those without power.

The totally disproportionate retribution against the junior doctor bring both government and the medical profession into disrepute.

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Rosa Klebb strikes again

This sort of thing highlights the Nazi tendencies of our unelected bureaucrats.

We urgently need a right to freedom of speech in this country, backed up by access to the law as they have in the US. In this country only the very rich and very poor can enforce their 'rights'.

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@Bill Gould

I read it as a pretty savage personal attack, calling someone "a fucking shit" to your mates down the pub is one thing. A lot of people don't seem to understand that writing something on the internet is publishing it, which seems to mean they don't think about what they write. If someone were to refer to her in a newspaper as a fucking shit it would probably end up in court. Likewise if she were called "a fucking shit" to her face by someone effectively in her employ, that would probably end up in loss of job.

NB: I think that her performance has been utterly shameful and incompetent, I don't think that she should be without criticism. I also think that she should probably be without this job.

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Coat

Right to criticize not the same as right to abuse

I entirely agree that we should have the right to free speech and to criticize, but why should that come down to the lowest common denominator? Calling someone a "fucking shit" is hardly intelligent criticism, it's just abuse.

I think as it stands, the suspension is entirely justified. If he'd written a measured criticism avoiding abuse and swearwords, then he would have a valid complaint.

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Anonymous Coward

@"What can you expect... !" AC

How about an ITSecurity Manager who thinks you need to be sat in front of a Windoze PC to access the hard drive, and cannot do anything unless you log on? Or a forensics analysis team who have never heard of a Windoze Event Log?

Bunch of incompetant tossers cost me my job and since they also told everyone else to get rid of any evidence of wrongdoing (even going so far as to replace their machines) I couldnt prove I was not the only "wrong-doer".

Once the Management get to the point where they have enraged this sort of feeling amongst the people "below" them, they are already beyond the point of no return. The NHS is already dead on its feet but just does not know it yet.

Long Live The QUANGOs!

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n

employee bb's and forums.

The reason for the "internal" forums and doctors.net type setups is to encourage the exposure of non-sheep. This allows them to be "managed" and "re-educated" or culled where necessary.

The doctors union should get their act together and set up an alternative forum for doctors to use AND publicise it.

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Linux

Carol Black's Role

Bill G

"Likewise if she were called "a fucking shit" to her face by someone effectively in her employ, that would probably end up in loss of job"

Firstly, he was not in her "employ"

Secondly, Doctors.net.uk is a forum for doctors. A social community like a "pub".

Thirdly, Carol Black is much like the PM in the medical fraternity. Scot Jnr was simply discussing matters on a forum. Carol Black has not told anyone that she supports this suspension or action. She has not told anyone that she found it personally abusive. If everyone who criticised and swore at the PM was suspended then we would have no one left in the UK's workforce.

Roles are here

Carol Black - Department of Health cronie plus GMC Executive etc

Scot Jnr - Junior doctor who is not within her management.

Their relationship is not comparable to - employee and manager.

There is therefore no avenue for the use of the suspension. The guidance clearly states that only patient safety issues should result in suspension. This isn't a patient safety issue

Rita Pal

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Boffin

GMC and Andrew Wakefield

Dr Andrew Wakefield wants to find out what causes ADHD and he suspects it's something to do with the MMR vaccine. The GMC prosecute him and are still prosecuting him. I think the bloke needs some help, maybe some Doctors better at this sort of investigation should get involved. However that's not likely because the GMC will prosecute them too.

In the mean time ADHD continues to be a chronic problem which is also growing.

It's enough to make a person swear, but then they love it when you swear, it means you have lost control and they can get you for it.

Blue icon for blue lanuage.

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Paris Hilton

Shit or get off the pot

Hasn't this person just made a rude or libelous comment? The person who received the comment about them should consider libel, or get off the crapper. And I think by "common sense" the case would have to conclude that although the language is strong - the meaning of the accused statement would be deemed as being factually correct.

[I choose Paris because I have never dated a blonde]

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