To Daten-Antifa are againt freedom of speech (no matter how distasteful), are intolerant of views which oppose theirs, have no respect for law and seem to think that the end justifies the mean.
How are they any different to the fascists?
German anti-fascist hackers have broken into the secure forum server of one of the world's largest neo-Nazi groups, Blood & Honour, and copied more than 30,000 pieces of data. Blood & Honour, founded back in 1987 in the UK by Ian Stuart Donaldson, leader of the notorious skinhead band Skrewdriver, has been banned in Germany …
To Daten-Antifa are againt freedom of speech (no matter how distasteful), are intolerant of views which oppose theirs, have no respect for law and seem to think that the end justifies the mean.
How are they any different to the fascists?
Oh dear... what a pity... never mind! Should be the sort of thing our intelligence(??) services should be doing.
Makes a mockery of the whole thing, really. As the old saying goes, two wrongs don't make a right.
And, to be frank, these Antifa people are no better than the fascists. They beat people up, destroy property and threaten murder to get their way. They're both scum.
Delighted that these saddies are exposed. As far as i am concerned, any form of fascism or nazism is a crime against humanity -- human history, human dignity, human intelligence and human self-respect. Anyone who feels so inadequate about his social position needs counselling, not a swastika arm-band. It doesn't make them big, strong, or clever, it just marks them out as chaps who need to stomp down others to feel that they're better than. And as for the masochistic strain in this sort of thinking...eeeeuuuuuwwww.
in the far-right extremist scene are going to get very nervous,"
Nervous is not the word I'd use.
Unless by "nervous" you mean "homicidally enraged", or something along that line.
Coward. Yes, I have no desire to have my face (or any other part of my body) rearranged.
We don't know that they aren't.... but if their usual keeping tabs on extremists includes B&H, their work has just been made that much harder.
"However, police may not be able to do anything with the information, because the data was gathered illegally."
But surely, as it is now in the public domain, they can treat it as an anonymous tip and catch the facist scum?
The internet saves!
... those damned Racoons in their tracks!!
Ok, ok, I'm going, don't push.
No-one really believes in Naziism any more. If a few weirdos want to wear jackboots, let them -- there is not the slightest risk to the rest of us.
What *is* a risk to all of us is the idea that one small unpopular group may be treated as outlaws, deserving of no form of legal protection, whose free speech may be infringed at will. Law is about precedents. Once the precedent exists that the powerful may abuse the powerless and demonised, it will most certainly be used for wider purposes.
I gather that in Canada "hate laws" abolishing free speech were brought in during the 1970's, following a couple of public demonstrations by a few "Nazi's". Of course Canada was full of ex-servicemen who had fought against the Nazis, so everyone was horrified. But it has since emerged that the leader of these Nazi's was in fact employed by the Canadian Jewish Congress, specifically to stir up a Nazi 'threat' to get such legislation passed. Once it existed, of course, it had all sorts of uses. Probably the CJC simply found it useful as a means to stifle criticism of Israel or the like. But of course they too were bound to get abused: currently the same laws are being used by extreme Moslem groups to shut down criticism.
We need to stop being blinded by chants of "Nazi, Nazi" (pronounced in the same manner as 'Jew! Jew!') and consider just what sort of society we are being invited to endorse. The appropriate response to these pseudo-Nazi's is to enquire how many of them are agents provocateurs, and for the rest to ask them if the boots pinch.
Interesting name for an anti-Nazi, given what Deutsche Hollerith-Maschinen Gesellschaft did during the war for the Nazis.
To obtain this information, the so-called anti-fascists searched someone's house and then illegally access the servers. That makes them just as bad as the inadequates they were trying to 'out'
Whilst extreme right-wing views are unpleasant, an aspect of freedom is the freedom to hold and voice those views.
I think you've missed the point - Antifa have little interest in "upholding the law", they just like hassling facists and fair play to them. It's all very well jumping on your moral high horse to say "they're no better than the fascists", but have you never heard the phrase, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"?
If the scum that inhabit Blood & Honour, Redwatch and similar sites weren't threatening and attacking people, publishing personal info on 'lefties' and 'commies' etc, then people like Antifa wouldn't be bothering with them.
And before anyone says "sinking to their level", it's actually "beating them at their own game".
'Beating them at their own game'? 'Sinking to their level'?
Both extremes of the political spectrum are playing the same infantile game and are indeed, as bad as each other. The only intelligent way to treat them is with complete indifference.
They are all pathetic and inadequate thugs who will crawl back under their rocks if they don't get any publicity.
The German Police have already shown they're quite happy to purchase illegally obtained data.
Using it in court, now that's another matter...
who fought for Britain in WW2 to keep this country free.
Anyone with Nazi views should be fair game for outing, even if methods used to gather data aren't legal (I'm not condoning physical damage to life or property).
Visit a concentration camp, and, if you still think it's a valid concept for anyone to support, I suggest you've lost your humanity.
On the one hand you've got a bunch of nasty right-wing types who doubtless advocate a return to fascist politics complete with an obsession with anti-semitism that makes 'eff-all sense to any rational person.
On the other hand you've got a bunch of militant left-wing types willing to break the law and use violence in its bid to see these fascist groups wiped out, some of which would also like to see capitalism brought to an end through radical social change via class struggle.
So what you've got is two vastly opposed extreme political movements who rely on physical presence and intimidation to achieve their goals, and what's happened is one of them hacked the other one's forum and put the information online.
I think in this case it is in the public's interest to know who is a closet Nazi, so this time I'm going to give the points to the Antifas.
Also, because they acted outside the law, there's less pressure on the police to condone the actions of a bunch of commies.
So the goose-stepping morons are exposed without the state first having to impose the sort of draconian laws we're all afraid of - therefore I personally think Joe Everyman has come out on top this time.
RE: Roger Pearse - you are living in cloud freakin' cuckoo land if you think no-one believes in Naziism (sic) anymore. While it doesn't enjoy the mass support it did during the thirties, the movement is scarily alive and well, underground, and spread all across Europe and the U.S.
Not the fact that there are Neo-Nazi groups out there. The fact that some far-left wing group could do this and not worry about facing any criminal posecution.
It has gotten to the point in the UK now that being a member of a certian right-wing political organization can cost you your job. All kinds of people agree with it because the views of those few left a bad taste in the mouths of some. Problem is outlawing political organizations is a slippery slope till all parties but one are banned. Sort of like some so called Sci-Fi/Futuristic movies.
Methinks Roger Pearse had it right. They may not be popular (they're not) but they have a right to be unpopular. If they do something wrong legally, then the police will pick them up for being illegal.
If you follow the "Doing things more illegal than another group to get your way is just beating them at their own game", then perhaps you'd advocate wandering round with a set of pliers to threaten anyone who disagrees with you (or you think "needs to be taught a lesson").
Any info that was "released into the public domain" as part of a crack is inadmissible as evidence (otherwise all the police would need to do is hire crackers to do that every time they want to snoop and say "Oh look. Happy christmas guys!"). It may have been stuff the cops were working on, in which case.. Ooops.. Can't use that anymore. May be embarrassing to the individuals, but legally, they're probably off the hook.
There really is a worrying trend these days to make certain people "open targets", and to strip their rights. Just chant Nazi.. Racist.. Get mud to stick on either of those two (whether there really is any truth or not), and lo.. Society will go into the current equivalent of stoning and witch hunts. Trials not necessary.
The most worrying part of this is the backlash from the general populace. The more an extremist group gets pilloried, attacked and demonstrated to be mistreated, the more people will over time become sympathetic to them, and contemptuous of the 'guardians' who are showing themselves to be nothing more than cheap thugs.
If they're doing wrong, let the police deal with it (they WILL be being monitored as most extremist groups are). If you think the police need help, offer your services a volunteer. The race to the bottom of the barrel, and seeing who can throw ethics out of the pram the fastest never has a pretty end.
I wonder how up to date the membership information which was published is? or are some unsuspecting people due a brick through the window or maybe a beating outside there homes just for an out of data database
and why are they always called 'right wing' i've never seen any nazi influenced group talking about free market economics as the solution to societies problems
These types of organisation are alive because of those who fought for our freedom,
just that the freedom they fought for wasn't
"free to everyone except the British citizens"
society that europe has made Britain today
Free Speach is just that!
Not Free Speech as long as "the greenie, leftiye, ouyti touti, wishy washy, nambie pambie, how's ya father,dress up in skirts and do the conga, fannying about, far left extremism group" says so!
Both "treehugging leftie anti everything" and Nazism "your dead if your not airian" is wrong.... It's really is time for people to actually take some Moral high ground here, grow some common sense and .... Infact whats wrong with being a little bit left on some issues, and a little bit right on others.
To the parties featured in this story it's only acceptable if you are off the scale at either right or left. Extremism... it's a load of old shit, but again it's just my opinion!
Mine is the one hanging on the fence, blowing to the left and right in the wind of change!!!!
(How cheesy is that!)
@ Graham Dawson & AC - your claim that Antifa "are no better than the Nazis" is utter bollocks. How, exactly, is giving a few boneheads a good hiding equal to the systematic murder of ten million people ? You may as well say that a five-year-old boy who hits his little sister is just as bad as the Yorkshire Ripper.
@ Roger Pearse - saying "no-one believes in Naziism any more...there is not the slightest risk to the rest of us" really does fly in the face of reality. Perhaps you should take a holiday in Moscow or St Petersburg, and be sure to advertise the fact that you're a foreigner (or just do a bit of googling to find out how many murders by gangs of swastika'd skinheads are going on over there).
There are two solid bases for non-legally-sanctioned direct action against fascists. The legal basis is that the argument of "force majeure" applies, as it did with the peace campaigners who gave some missiles a good seeing-to with a hammer - whilst they were doing something technically illegal, the fact that they did it to stop a much greater evil means that they can be excused.
The moral basis is the Voltairism of "I don't agree with you, but will fight to the death to defend your right to say it". This is often employed by namby-pamby liberals & pacifists to justify why they will happily let fascists say whatever they want (as when Nick Griffin was allowed to speak at the Oxford Union)... but those people are blissfully ignoring the logical conclusion of the statement : there actually are some people - the fascists both in government and in gangs - that we have to fight to the death, to defend everyone else's rights.
Skull & Bones - for the F.C. St. Pauli fans everywhere.
... you will become the same as that which you fight.
It isn't a question of a tactical victory or loss, its a question of character.
To those quoting "do unto others..." as a justification for their actions, you are either ripping the quote from context while legitimising a B&H counter-attack, not realising that the quote applies to Antifa too, or you have totally misunderstood the intent. You are supposed to apply the principle to your own actions, not to the actions of others.
For contemplation: Which is worse?
- to yell, "I hate the Jews"
- steal a granny's purse
- to foreclose on a granny's mortgage and leave her homeless
- to start a war in Europe
- to start a war in the Middle East
A little perspective is required. Destroy their influence by showing their way of life to be inadequate, not by trying to beat them up.
Tux - cos he shows up the inadequate too ;)
I think the point is that the people who are deriding this are upholding the same principals of freedom and democracy that your father and his countrymen were.
The fact that you -- or I -- don't like the people that they are defending should not be relevant. Or else, who is to decide who gets justice and who doesn't? Me? You? Sort of defeats the meaning of the word "justice", surely?
Well it was bad enough when it was just Big Brother that was watching. Now we've not only got to worry about the thought police, but the thought vigilantes as well.
As for relatives fighting and dying to save us from Nazism -- they did and they did. Nazism is no longer a serious threat to our way of life, and the crimes of neo-nazis should be treated the same as those of any other petty thug.
"The only intelligent way to treat them is with complete indifference." Hmm that worked well the last time didnt it?
"No-one really believes in Naziism any more."
If only that were true, groups like Aryan nation wouldn't exist.
Neither would American Nazi Party, National Alliance, National Socialist Movement, National Socialist Vanguard, Ku Klux Klan (All U.S.), British National Party, Combat 18, British First Party, nor the various National Unity Parties.
What is equally frightening are those of the (predominantly) American loony right who claim Hitler was a socialist.
We're only reading this due to people who fought to keep this country free? I see - and this 'freedom' is defined by silencing viewpoints not held by the majority?
Perhaps you should look up freedom and think about what it actually means. Unless Nazis are doing something like beating people up (which is illegal in itself) then they should be left to their own devices and good luck to them.
Every view, no matter how odious or offensive has a right to be heard.
'Shut up!' is not a refutation of any argument at all.
"Suspected" to be used by neonazis? Excuse me, but I've never seen anyone from B&H trying to conceal anything.
As for the "no one believes in Nazism anymore" - it's not entirely true. Quite a lot of people do, if not all openly or quite conciously. The whole of Europe seems to be making a bit of a "rechtsruck" as I've heard it called, and I don't like it. Yes, I'm fairly leftish. Yes, I have friends in the antifascist movement. No, I'm not some lazy kid trying to get myself some more social security - the only reason I'm posting here is that I've got a nasty cold and as such can't fill up all of the 50+ hours I spend each week for university.
I read people saying "they're just as bad, nothing better". I disagree very much. You see, the difference between far-right and far-left is that far-right claim that certain people are worth less because of the colour of their skin, while far-left claims that the far-righters are worth less because they are silly. Makes sense, no? Well, except for the fact that "left" and "right" mean next to nothing in this context - a lot of the antifascist movement are more anarchist than socialist.
Mine's the one with the AFA pin on it, worn proudly even though I might not entirely agree with some of their actions.
Well done sir!
Have a round of applause!
Paris... cos she probably has something to do with "clap"ing
Yes we should all stand for you Jimbo. A lot of the roads to a society where freedom is repressed was paved by people with your view that the ends justified the means.
So I guess you would see nothing wrong with anit-abortinist blowing up a clinic killing people. Or some green peace activist digging up a persons ancestors to stop them breeding animals for fooding or clothing.
Otherwise they could spend time in prison, given that haulocaust denial and tolerating nazi views is an offence there (as it should be here) (Frankly I feel that holding Nazi views or being a member of a neo nazi group should equal lifetime hard labour or if the labour camps are full......hanging or a bullet....whats ever cheaper.)
I loathe Nazis and I also loathe so called "communists" same idea just wrapped up in different words and terms essentially boiling down to "the state is watching you, do what we say or else" with power cemented in one party/person.
Frankly I think the BNP etc should be banned and any past or present members should be rounded up and dealt with as above as well as the "socialist hardcore" parties (SSP, socialist labour, Respect etc) Why should I pay 90% tax solely because I work hard and spent time studying??
They arent banned though as they make the govt look better and a "saner" option, providing a smokescreen to distract attention from ID cards, National DNA database etc (An open opportunity for the police to fit the crime to a selected suspect rather than finding the actual perp) (and dont roll out that old govt chesnut - "nothing to hide, nothing to fear" <- yeah and the pope is a taoist *rolls eyes*)
Though at this rate I wont earn enough to pay tax given the amount of jobs being sent overseas or reserved for "ethnic groups" or "young single mothers" or "religious minorities" rather than anyone qualified to do the job properly.
Though makes sense given the amount of hand wringers who worry and fret about being "fair" to everyone and end up only being fair to those who dont deserve fairness ie abu hamza and his ilk, nick griffin and his crew of nazis in suits, traitors to Britain like George Galloway who claim the west is the root of all evil and we should bow down to militant Islam or some other crackpot handwringing concept (No chance!)
This country has lost its mind well and truly, feral children running wild everywhere (If you dont have them in your area, must be nice living in a gated community safe from "reality"), people afraid to help kids who are in need for fear of bring branded a "peedo" (sic) by the local moomy (sic) lynch mob so the kid ends up being abducted/run over/drowned/electrocuted instead of sense which would be "if your in trouble go to "police station/shop/post office" etc and teaching kids that most people arent interested in hurting them apart from a bad minority and how to be aware of who to talk to in the street and who to avoid.
But no, thats "too hard and takes too much pure time mahn, hunners of they dirty sick blokes hiding behind doors ready to grab mah bairns / council housing upgrades"
Ugh this stupidity makes my head hurt
The problem is that people in groups always seem to tend towards thuggery and confrontation with people in other groups.
Something as simple as Sony Fanboyism vs Xbox Fanboyism, local level gang warfare, right up to Nazis vs Lefties and Americans vs Russians. When people congregate behind a common point of view, flag etc etc no matter what it is, eventually, a proportion of them will go extremist. We can only hope that the extremist few don't actually end up leading the group, because thats when the group itself becomes extremist and starts to collect more people with extremist views.
This world is never going to get any better until we can unhook from the paranoia of the loneliness and actually start considering and having our own thoughts based on evidence rather than waiting to see what the other members of our chosen herd do and follow that.
Of course, to change that would be to change human nature and probably impossible. Therefore its only a matter of time before two extreme groups decide to kill each other and takes us all with them.
Personally, I think it will be the Sony Fanboys that blink first, but others suspect it will be the Americans, some the Russians.
Mines the one with "gun toting extremist coat wearer" on the back.
...spot the difference.
To the people saying the far left are better than the far right....
Stalin was far left. So was Mao Tse Tung. So was Pol Pot. Ho Chi Minh. Putin. Kim Jong Il. Whoever the hell's currently in charge in China.
When you take far left or far right, and keep going the way the majority do once they have any power, you go full circle, and although the justifications may be different, the actions are the same. It doesn't matter to the guy being gassed / sent to the Gulag / face-down in the killing fields / harvested for organs what the political motivations are.
Condoning this behaviour because you don't agree with someone is the start of nasty, nasty things. I seem to remember a certain vertically-challenged Austrian started by socially excluding and demonising those whose politics he didn't agree with...
(despite the flameproof leather jacket, I feel obliged to point out that I am not in any way agreeing with the neonazis/afas/scientologists/any other involved party. It's depressing that I feel I have to clarify this.)
If you remember that the German government recently paid an industrial spy for a stolen confidential list of German customers at a Lichtenstein bank, with the understanding that most of them were not declaring these accounts on their German tax returns, I think it's fairly clear how much they care about where evidence comes from. (It may turn out to be inadmissible, but they were sufficiently confident to pay the thief in the first place, so somebody thought it was a good gamble.)
By comparison, reading stolen information from a public site should sail through any procedural review. Of course, that list of banking customers had a cash value to the government in lost tax revenue, so their business case might have been easier to justify...
A good, intelligent, well-expressed post. Well done.
"How, exactly, is giving a few boneheads a good hiding equal to the systematic murder of ten million people ?"
Ok, so beating up a few people is fine, but when do you stop? ten? thirty? a hundred? When does it become wrong?
Anyway I said the antifa people are as bad as the people they say they're fighting against - neo-nazis. Losers. They don't just beat people who "deserve it", they attack people who they smear as far right without any reason. They attack women and children in their own homes simply for having a remote connection to organisations called "far right". They destroy people's property for no reason at all, assault anyone who disagrees with them and then claim they're doing it for the "greater good" or some bullcrap.
You may find it a little interesting to learn that the standards of these antifa people would class just about the entire British body politic from the 1940s as fascist. People who fought and died to fight the real nazis would be called fascist today, precisely for the reasons they were called heroes in the war.
As, I believe, Henry Morgenthau predicted, the new fascists call themselves anti-fascist. They are thugs and bullies, violent, cruel and uncaring of any laws they break and if they had any real power there would be blood in the streets.
...anymore, so to be fair we should all take ourselves outside and shoot us.
Hopefully Nature will do what it does best and cull a lot of us.
it is quite amusing, they were used as propoganda movies and their effect is still seen today.
If you look at the UK history, and well any country's history, you will see a very checkered past. Attempted genocide and concentration camps in the Boer war. Indian reservations and arguably genocide of a way of life in how the west was won.
And it goes on, but one things is for sure the movies have left both communism with Stalin and his mas executions, and Facism with the holocaust, so people can knee jerk at both of them.
What we have is two extremist groups, don't think the far left is not racist when it suits them, and don't think the far right is racist by default.
It is about gangs, and of course that is what most political systems and groups are just gangs of people. Sure, the packaging could be made different to fit in more with a majority thinking, but there is very little difference between those claiming to be moderate and those who are claimed to be extremists.
Everyone is about maintaining their way of life, or achieving more, at the expense of the other groups. Basically everyone has a plank in their eye.
'I feel that holding Nazi views or being a member of a neo nazi group should equal lifetime hard labour or if the labour camps are full......hanging or a bullet....whats ever cheaper'
With such reasoned and well thought out views what can we possibly add? Honestly who can put forward such suggestions with a straight face?
If you want to live in a world where people could be locked away or even executed for having a 'view' then I humbly suggest you have more than a little of the nazi spirit in you.
*Big heart because they'll think im a softy liberal*
"A lot of the roads to a society where freedom is repressed was paved by people with your view that the ends justified the means."
Nazis are responsible for systematic killing of everybody they thought as inferior. Which means, everybody. And their victims number tens of millions.
As far as I'm concerned, Nazis and people who share their opinion have as much human rights as a rabid dog, and should be disposed of accordingly. Some things, be they Nazism or rape of toddlers, are too hideous to be tolerated and no amount of relativism or reductio ad absurdum can justify them.
William Shirer - Rise and Fall of the Third Reich; in case your mind is not clear on Nazism.
The AC whose father fought in WW2 says Nazism is not a valid view - ok, so what is, do you want to decide which viewpoints are valid and which aren't? What gives you the right to make that claim?
The AC who says its a shame we don't live in Austria - I'm sorry I don't follow, but like some others here you seem to be implying that anyone who calls themselves a nazi is guilty of genocide by association - I'm sorry but that's a non sequitur.
I don't attack Christians because of the terrible wrongs they caused in the crusades or the inquisition.
If in defeating Hitler's Germany we were just allowing the other side to voice its views without any opposition then it seems like there is little difference. Just because someone holds a view that would mean you would not have a say if they were in power, does not mean they're not entitled to a view.
"Otherwise they could spend time in prison...."
Firstly I'm hardly surprised you chose NOT to give your name away!
Secondly...What a load a of old rambling shite! (just my opinion, build a bridge!)
You start off by saying you hate Nazis etc,(Otherwise they could spend time in prison, given that haulocaust denial and tolerating nazi views is an offence there (as it should be here) (Frankly I feel that holding Nazi views or being a member of a neo nazi group should equal lifetime hard labour or if the labour camps are full......hanging or a bullet....whats ever cheaper.)
But whats all that crap about killing people for their beliefs... and censoring what you think.
Stalin and Hilter come to mind here! Sorry pal, I've got news for you.. looks like you've managed to get in bed with them too!
You are suggesting killing people for what the believe! Hilter did that.. so did Stalin, and Pol-Pot, I can go on!
Freedom of speech is not dependant of Governement... well at least it shouldn't be!
There is a limit. Abu Hamza to use your example, is condoning Murder, and violence. He should be dealt with accordingly. People who rape, pilliage (does this still happen?) or Murder, should be suitibly dealt with.
There is a case for Punishment fits the crime. Serial Killers don't need "help" they need locking up. Mainly for the protection of everyone else.
Rapists the same. whereas Shoplifters and petty criminals can often be helped to be turned back into decent human beings given time. Mostly there crimes are out of necessity, rather than hate, or sexual gratification or whatever.
Basically you need to get a grip of what life is about. I don't pay 90% tax, and I'd be on the front line of a revolution to stop this ever happening. I'd also be there to protest against you ever getting a position of any responsibilty!!
Mines the one with "build a bridge" written on it
try hanging around with them for a while.
been there, done that, got the fuck out
I've read the many learned posts with studied interest...
My conclusion? Ffs won't someone please immanentize the Eschaton, please? Then we can all get along together either at some technological Singularity or an Omega point long off in deep-time....
Wonder if we'll still have Nazis though?
Sorry sir, this isn't the bigot's convention. Allow me to direct you to the appropriate place. This way, please:
If you go on a trawling expedition through dictionaries for "fascism", the definition turns out to have two faces: a political one and an economic one.
The political one is common or garden variety totalitarianism, and there's little in that respect to distinguish fascism from any other totalitarian system. The economic aspecty is the distinguishing feature of fascism: the affairs of the state and of business & industry are integrated into a nearly seamless whole. A reminder that Latin "fasces" refers to a bundle of rods bound together, as carried by Roman lictors before important personages -- and used to this day in the US to symbolize the joining together of individual states into a single country.
Indeed, it is not an exaggeration to say that the current influence of the corporate sector on governmental affairs world-wide is a form of fascism, though admittedly driven more by business interests than by politicians.
When we look at neo-nazi movements, we find that they're focussed not on economic integration of the body politic, but on a fairly childish obsession with Nazi ritual and regalia combined with Jew-bashing and other forms of "racial" hatred. They are generally movements among the politically impotent and are mere irritants, not serious political movements.
Ergo, therefore, and consequently I suggest to all El Reg readers to stop calling the neo-nazi punks and skinheads "fascists." If you asked them to define fascism, you'd just be given a stare of incomprehension or, at best, a question about the brand of styling gel you use to keep your Mohawk up and whether it's made by Jews.
In fact, pseudo-Nazis might be an even word.