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back to article El Reg tells you what the Highway Code can't

This week’s big motoring news has to be Swindon Borough Council’s decision to look again at the use of speed cameras. Or is it? El Reg is not so sure, as we explain below. Meanwhile, peculiar parking practices continue to hit the headlines. Red faces all round in Torbay, where one parking enforcement officer attempted to tell …

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Paris Hilton

Err

Am I reading The Register or Private Eye here?

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Tim
Unhappy

i want to pay more for my motoring.

As i simply do not pay enough. I miserly 1.17 a litre of unleaded, the prospect of only a doubling of road tax, the likelihood that i will be clamped by a "special" traffic warden, and to cap it all, my company may have to pay for the priveledge of me parking my car at their workplace, so passing on the cost to me.

I tell you, it aint enough....can i have some kind of random "pick on the motorist" as i appear to have some pence left at the end of the month in which to buy such luxuries as food and shelter.

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Anonymous Coward

employers who provide parking for their staff

Big sign saying "No Parking", problem solved.

Surely they aren't going to introduce a requirement that they actually prosecute?

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Silver badge
Unhappy

Sticks, carrots, and the 'green' excuse.

***"This is expected to start in 2010 at £185 per liable parking space and then rise over time to £350. The council believes that by penalising individuals who park in the city, they will encourage greater uptake of public transport."****

Funny how every 'green' initiative thought up by local and national government is invariably a stick that will cost the motorist money. Never is there a carrot to counterbalance it.

I note that the BBC article states that the money raised "would be invested back into funding more and better public transport in Nottingham". Notice it doesn't say "cheaper public transport".

The cynical amongst us might start to believe that these 'green' initiatives are merely an excuse to raise cash.

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RTTM

Wow, yet another group who understands the illusion of regression to the mean. Isn't it amazing how all theses unpaid amateurs understand the effect and significance, but not one of the 2000 full time, paid SCP staff (spread across 40-50 partnerships) ever mention it, even though this effect (alone, yes there are other illusions which must be accounted for) knocks off ~80% of their magnitude of their claim. I don't think there can be any doubt that they know that RTTM exists and is very significant, they are knowingly giving misleading statements while obtaining an advantage (their revenue stream) - I believe that's fraud.

I await the usual ill thought through, fallacious (and irrelevant) responses of 'removing cameras will result with a free-for-all' and ''you shouldn't be speeding anyway'.

Smeggy out!

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Paris Hilton

Where's Ollie when you need him most then?

Oliver Cromwell's Speech on the Dissolution of the Long Parliament

Given to the House of Commons

20 April 1653

It is high time for me to put an end to your sitting in this place, which you have dishonored by your

contempt of all virtue, and defiled by your practice of every vice; ye are a factious crew, and

enemies to all good government; ye are a pack of mercenary wretches, and would like Esau sell

your country for a mess of pottage, and like Judas betray your God for a few pieces of money.

Is there a single virtue now remaining amongst you? Is there one vice you do not possess? Ye have

no more religion than my horse; gold is your God; which of you have not barter'd your conscience

for bribes? Is there a man amongst you that has the least care for the good of the Commonwealth?

Ye sordid prostitutes have you not defil'd this sacred place, and turn'd the Lord's temple into a den

of thieves, by your immoral principles and wicked practices? Ye are grown intolerably odious to the

whole nation; you were deputed here by the people to get grievances redress'd, are yourselves gone!

So! Take away that shining bauble there, and lock up the doors. In the name of God, go!

So whats new then? Paris - because she's far more upfront than the 'sordid prostitutes' currently in Her Maj's Government.

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@ AC

Don't knock it. It is rapidly coming down to my reading only El Reg and Private Eye - pretty much every other publication seems to aim at the lowest common denominator, and follow the latest trend.

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Anonymous Coward

So, I can't drive my car

but I can't take the train because they're overcrowded.

Obviously this isn't about funding MPs pay rises and second homes it's about safety.

The UK now seems to have some of the highest taxes in the world collected in possibly the most inefficient way.

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@JonB

As an employer, I can state that our local council (not Nottingham) has already asessed our premises to see how many parking spaces we have, in preparation for a 'possible' parking levy.

It's an industrial unit, with an irregular-shaped unmarked yard, in which we park and also perform any loading etc. There is a further yard to the side of the building, used for storage and maintenence. The council has measured up and performed some best case mathematical trickery, and took the figure that would be the case if the yards were 100% dedicated to parking (which they aren't and can never be).

Isn't local government wonderful?

Like a previous poster, I feel that driving is FAR too cheap (cough!), I think I might as well just sign over my lifetime earnings now in exchange for 10 minutes driving in a circle in a Reliant Robin at 10mph. What more does anyone want??

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Err

If you look to the top of your browser window, you will see a conveniently placed URL. No need to thank me.

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Flame

Charging businesses for parking

Apologies if I'm missing something fundamental, but since when did local councils have the authority to charge landowners for providing off-road car parking spaces? I suppose there might be some extortion room if said business was in leased council premises, but surely a business that owned its own property could tell the council to go fuck themselves?

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Replace GATSOs with average speed checks

Steve said: "I await the usual ill thought through, fallacious (and irrelevant) responses of 'removing cameras will result with a free-for-all' and ''you shouldn't be speeding anyway'."

At the risk of casting pearls before swine, I'm not sure if removing cameras will result in a free-for-all, but it makes me wonder what possible motive there is for objecting to speed cameras unless they cramp your style.

A valid objection to the long-established and familiar GATSOs is that they make motorists slam on the breaks on approach then take off again afterwards. Just after the A11 joins the A14 eastbound, there is a GATSO and I often see this behaviour. Elsewhere, where average speed checks are in place people actually keep to the speed limits.

The fact that so many petrol-heads and Jeremy Clarkson wannabes gripe suggests to me that they work and should be left alone.

And yes, Steve, you shouldn't be speeding anyway.

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Road Fatalities since speed cameras were introduced

Th only effect they seem to have had is to have halted the year-on-year decline in fatalities per billion miles driven.

http://www.abd.org.uk/road_fatalities.htm

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Does it matter?

Private Eye or El Reg?? Who cares, both are worthy publications.

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Anonymous Coward

@AC : Parking.

Did you have a big sign saying "No Parking" and tut loudly about the difficulties of enforcement while they were looking round?

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Anonymous Coward

@ Steve

'you shouldn't be speeding anyway'.

Well, you *shoudn't*.

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Dead Vulture

Gimme the CAAASSHH!!

Nottingham council... (shakes head).. so glad I moved from that stinking shitehole.

I once got a parking ticket whilst parked in a bay with a valid ticket next to a ticket machine, so I could walk from my car to the council office to pay for a previous parking ticket I got registering to get married.. turns out I was parked in a loading bay with the world's smallest sign.. Why was there a ticket machine there eh?

Dead Vulture = One less parking clown.

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Unhappy

@Jel Mist

I once had the pleasure of having a natter with the sales director of SCS Speedcheck, the guys who make the average speed cameras that you see on the motorway. The kit is expensive but has one flaw... people slow down.

The safety camera partnerships (read cash extractors) can claim back their running costs from the treasury our of fines. This means that if the system costs £100,000 and catches enough people to raise a revenue ^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h fines of £200,000 then the SCP gets their hundred grand back and the treasury gets to keep the other hundred grand.

If, in the case of the SCS Speedcheck offering, the kit costs a bit more but everyone slows down (because they know that it's there and they know that it's pretty damn near impossible to avoid) then fewer people get fined and the SCP has to raise their funds elsewhere. Any GATSO camera out there is intrinsically selected because it raises funds rather than slows people down and that is why they should all be removed and replaced with average speed cameras.

Besides, with all the debt the government is getting us in to, it makes you wonder where all this cash from the extra stealth taxes is going.

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@Mike Smith

The Transport Act 2000 gave Councils the power to do this

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/ukpga_20000038_en_13#pt3

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@AC quoting Ollie Cromwell

I had to read it twice before I realised it wasn't AManfrommars that wrote that.

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M

Re: Parking Fee for 'em Workers in Nottingham

The "public" transport that the Nottingham City Council is seeking monies to build Tram Line 2 which goes to nowhere worthy!

Nah! I'll be using the Public Transport with free bus pass anyway! :D

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@Eponymous Cowherd

The money in Nottingham is going to be spent on extra tram routes. It may not make travel cheaper but it will up the capacity massively.

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@Arnold Lieberman

The episode of Top Gear where the then Minister of Transport, Stephen Ladyman, was the "Star in a reasonably priced car" is a classic as Clarkson had obtained the true figures for accidents in speed camera areas and subjected SL to a fair bit of humiliation. Basically, the speed cameras had done sod all for the numbers, but a great deal for Government finances

I'm sure it's available from your nearest P2P/Torrent source ;)

The road sign, as it's an obvious choice...

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Jim

Nothing new here...

"Still, it doesn’t yet come close to rates in London. A report out yesterday revealed that London Parking Charges are the most expensive in the world. The monthly rate for parking in the City is top of the list at £586 - exactly double that of New York's midtown area"

What do you mean double? I assume that it would cost $586 pcm to park in NYC so, given that £1=$1*, then the prices are identical. What are you complaining about ;-)

Also, the clamping ambulances thing. Given that the private amubulance is blocking the smooth operation of an A&E dept, just what is to be gained by locking it in said position? Surely it would be more practical to tow the offending vehicle and impound it? Or does this have bugger all to do with public safety :-0

* Exchange rate courtesy of Adobe and MS corps (to name but a few).

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Camera reports

What the reports ALWAYS fail to take into account is the fact that the amount of people killed on the A road where the camera is might drop, but on B roads around the camera site where people start driving to avoid cameras it rises

I'm probably what most of you would class as a "boy racer" and I love speed cameras

We used to have traffic cops sitting behind every corner with guns and I got 9 points on my license, but now all the funding goes on cameras you can spend £50 at your local halfords on a GPS camera warning system and never get nicked

Points free for 5 years now!

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Happy

Re. SCS Speedcheck

"Any GATSO camera out there is intrinsically selected because it raises funds rather than slows people down and that is why they should all be removed and replaced with average speed cameras."

If fewer people are being fined by average speed checks, that's probably testament to their effectiveness.

Of course, the most effective way of putting the camera merchants out of business is to deny them any revenue.

Now... I wonder how we could all do that...

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@Arnold Lieberman

The graph on the link you posted isn't a chart of the number of fatalities per billion miles driven, but a chart of the number of deaths and the amount of miles driven. If you look at the graph carefully, you will notice that the number of miles driven is moving upwards over the period of speed camera usage, whilst the number of deaths is dropping. During the period used for the extrapolation of the trend, the amount of miles driven is reasonably constant. Hence, if anything, this graph demonstrates the reduction in fatalities per billion miles driven over the period in question.

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Here comes the two wheels solution...

Yup, i found a solution about ten years ago, get a motorbike.

Where I live its double yellow as far as the eye can see but i can always find a small parking space for the bike.

Then the commute to work (On a motorway) is through complete gridlock, but I can cruise through the gaps easily enough and always get to work on time. Plus don't forget folks those average speed cameras they install on motorways dont work with motorbikes as they are looking for front number plates (Yes I still have to watch out for the normal speed cameras).

Then when i get to work they have a charging scheme for parking, but hey, motorbikes are exempt.

Its cheap on fuel as well. Have never had to pay for parking or any form of fine, ever.

If you can stand the cold in the winter and the rain in the summer (Gawd bless Blightly!) plus avoid those idiot drivers on their mobile phones its a chance to get out of the motoring meltdown rat-race and have lots and lots of fun.

First person to call me a smug git will get a nod in agreement off me.

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@M

Free bus pass in Nottingham?

You're either over 60 or a special case ;)

Mine costs me real money.

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IT Angle

IT Angle?

It has to be asked!!!!

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Anonymous Coward

Free for all, no matter where you live...

They're so right, the first thing I thought about was going for a joy ride around swindon...

...who on earth thought this?

Hell, if you really wanted to go speeding around without cameras, you would already know millions of other better places to do so. And, where there cameras were in Swindon.

Oh well, I hope they remove them so I can make a 200 mile road trip so I can speed through a city durning the day. (From all over the country? what about people 400 miles away, them too?)

Idiots, Class 1

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RE : Replace GATSOs with average speed checks

"At the risk of casting pearls before swine, I'm not sure if removing cameras will result in a free-for-all, but it makes me wonder what possible motive there is for objecting to speed cameras unless they cramp your style.

A valid objection to the long-established and familiar GATSOs is that they make motorists slam on the breaks on approach then take off again afterwards. Just after the A11 joins the A14 eastbound, there is a GATSO and I often see this behaviour. Elsewhere, where average speed checks are in place people actually keep to the speed limits.

The fact that so many petrol-heads and Jeremy Clarkson wannabes gripe suggests to me that they work and should be left alone."

Are you mad? There's no other explanation for this tripe

It has nothing to do with cramping of style. Watch drivers at any speed camera and see where they're looking, because it's not at the road, it's at the speedometer. Some idiot kid runs out and splat. Would you rather I hit you at 30mph or miss you at 35mph?

We'll ignore the fact that pedestrians should follow the green cross code and shouldn't bitch if they get hit when they've just wandered into the road looking for that really good James Blunt track on their ipod.

When the M6 had the average speed cameras in the roadworks I was left not a little concerned that everyone was watching their speedo and not the road. All it would have taken was one minor slip to have resulted in a massive pile up.

And speed...sorry...safety cameras (revenue cameras more like) do nothing for drivers doing exactly 50mph, exactly on the speed limit, while tailgating behind someone by 5 feet and the person behind them and the person behind them as far as the eye can see. Speeding never killed anyone. Inadequate stopping distance kills people!

What we need is some kind of man or woman in a car to....for want of a better word, police...the roads, maybe if we had someone like that they could monitor and prosecute speeders, driving too close, driving with spotlights on, people with no lane discipline on roundabouts and they could also be used to help with other crimes.

It's a radical idea I know but there's a slight possibility more police on the roads would reduce all manner of dangerous driving, don't you think?

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Stop

A14 Average speed cameras

I've stopped that commute now, but those average speed cameras were installed and there followed a significant improvement in transit times / consistency.

My real concern is that if we have a £5 charge for using the toll hard shoulder, where do I park up when I break down?

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Heart

Who cares whether they save lives ?

Far as I'm concerned, if they really do exist to provide councils with revenue, that's just peachy by me. How is taking money off people who drive like wankers a bad thing ?

Speed cameras only drive up the cost of motoring for people who are to stupid to understand what speed limit signs are for. Do away with the whole 'safety' aspect, re-label them 'enforcement cameras', and put them on every single stretch of road in these sceptered isles. If this makes a lot of cash, we shall call it "the stupidity tax", and spend the proceeds on cycling facilities and traffic calming measures to further anger the knobheads who filled the coffers.

And Steve, you really _shouldn't_ be speeding anyway.

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"You shouldn't be speeding"..

Or drinking more than a couple of units of alcohol per week, or taking photos of people on a street (and god forbid they're under the age of 16), buying bananas that are too straight, or apples too small.

The interesting thing about speed cameras is that they're only allowed to be placed where a given percentile (I think it's the 85th, from memory) is travelling over the speed limit. Statistically, the safest are between the 80th to 90th. So you're capturing quite a few drivers from the safest statistically speaking.

The reason that people tend to drive over the speed limit is because the roads are empty, and it is safe to do so.

However, where speed cameras are NOT allowed to be placed is where the 85th percentile is BELOW the speed limit. And guess what! That means people evaluate the road as being DANGEROUS. But hey, you're not allowed to place a camera there by regulation.

This leads to cameras being placed on roads that are safe, but with high traffic volume (way to maximise the profit!). What it doesn't lead to is placement where it would actually enforce what people evaluate by observation, that it is DANGEROUS to travel at speed on some roads.

If you go into all the "shouldn't"s that law allows and denies, you'll barely be able to do anything. Racing through crowded roads isn't my thing. I'm no 'boy racer'. No accidents in 21 years of driving almost every day. One incidence of getting caught by a camera, doing 35 in a 30 late at night on an empty, wide road with nobody around.

Even the guys on the 'safety course' I was obligated to spend 60 quid on and a day of my time on couldn't tell me it was unsafe (when I had that debate with them, they actually conceded that it was perfectly safe).

Honestly, I think speed limits are a good, average guide rather than a permanent hard rule. If the road is busy, I travel under the limit (sometimes well under the limit).

If the road is definitely empty, then I travel over the limit. First rules of driving I ever had were "Drive well inside a pessimistic view of your abilities" and "Your driving isn't about how good you are, you have to compensate for all the idiots on the road.".

Closing speed cams down isn't playing with lives. Generating a culture that says everything is somebody else's fault, and everything can be cured with suing, or threatening someone is playing with lives. And oh, look.. What is the culture of the day..

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"well you shouldn't be speeding"

How predictable! Two people have mentioned this without actually commenting on the point of the article and my post.

To address the disingenuous statements: the problem is that the speed limit has been ratcheted down to what is now generally considered to be unreasonable or unnatural speeds. The end result is that the powers that be are making limits increasingly difficult to abide by, unintentionally or otherwise. One has to consider the possibility that speed limits are being lowered to ensure a steady revenue stream for the SCPs - well they've already repeatedly, knowingly committed the sin of capitalising on the RTTM effect (among other sins).

Is it really surprising the drivers don't respect limits which earn only disrespect?

@Vincent Curry

For the last few years, the number of deaths has remained static and the number of miles driven has not been increasing (in fact just recently it has started dropping due to prohibitive fuel costs).

This is a better (and more up to date) graph:

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/trend2005.gif

(The vertical scale is road deaths per million vehicle kilometres. The red line is actual data from Department for Transport. The yellow bar is a 'least squares fit' on the curve from 1950 until 1994 with the width of the bar representing 95% confidence intervals). Very telling, especially when considering the 2006 and 2007 data!

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Anonymous Coward

@ Gary Myers

"Even more ridiculous are the signs stating the number of "casualties". I would rather see a total of how many actually died. After all, they can define "casualty" as they see fit. Dead people are usually pretty well defined!"

So, losing a leg or an arm, or being totally paralysed or never being able to have kids again, or having to go on dialysis for the rest of your life - rules you less worthy of mention than being dead. Not to mention that you seem to miss the fact that maybe you get off scot free, and you just maim somebody else. Well you didn't kill them so we'll leave you out of the news shall we ?

I use the word "you" for two reasons :

1) You (Gary) posted the comment

2) You (individuals) are the only ones who can affect your driving, you can't change other peoples.

Softening the subject by saying "we" changes the focus away from personal responsibility.

The signs are a warning !

If you're dead, it's all over, no point worrying.

If you're crippled then you've got to live with the consequences.

Which prospect appeals to you more ?

I never cease to be amazed by the number of people who think that they know better. They spend their lives ignoring warnings and even criticising them, even though the signs are designed by the people who spend *their* time scraping such einsteins off the road. I think the police have a better understanding of where and how accidents happen and who is involved. The local authorites have a better understanding of how much the ambulance service is costing to run, and why there is always an upward blip when you get a bit of rain. Where I live, the ambulance station is about 100 yards away, and if I hear it start raining, then I can almost guarantee that within 5 minutes the sirens start. I'm pretty sure they're not dealing with floods.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Jel Mist

"At the risk of casting pearls before swine, I'm not sure if removing cameras will result in a free-for-all, but it makes me wonder what possible motive there is for objecting to speed cameras unless they cramp your style."

One more than one occasion I have been driving within the speed limit when the car in front of me, traveling within the speed limit, has suddenly braked hard because they saw a speed camera. My motive for wanting to get rid of them is because they cause erratic behavior with some drivers which can lead to accidents.

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Alert

bags on the cameras in swindon

Although suffering from the disability of having to work in Swindon I can confirm the two speed cameras on the A420 in Swindon have fetching "camera not in use " bags over them. Unfortunately for any budding <insert driver of choice> they are only 200 meters from Gable Cross Cop Shop. But in best joined up thinking, they installed a new camera on the A419 last week...

I can't work out whether I want the Stop or Go symbol...

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Guy
Unhappy

Re Here comes the two wheels solution...

cold, wet smug git

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@Sliding Billy

Thanks. Just had a look.

Oh Jesus, how I loathe this Government.

:-(

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Anonymous Coward

Will councillors pay?

So once local councils go ahead with this Workplace Parking Levy, which will almost definitely be passed down to the employees, can we expect our local Councillors to start paying for their workplace parking. I doubt it.

I realise it would be futile to expect the Council to actually pay the levy for their own workplace parking as it's our Council Tax which would surely just go straight back into the Council's coffers (minus admin costs of course), but if the idea is to encourage the use of Public Transport, then surely they should lead by example

Hey there's a novel idea, Politicians who have to put up with all the rules and regs that they force upon the rest of us!!!

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Car space levy.

Aren't certain types of business above a certain size required by planning laws and byelaws to provide a certain amount of parking? Could this lead to a conflict of interest?

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Flame

Re Here comes the two wheels solution...

It's only cold and wet until you see the faces of the livid caggers who can't understand why they can't drive any faster in their living room on wheels... Then the warm fuzzy feeling kicks in. :-)

Yes you are inconsiderate.

Yes you are in my way.

Yes you are taking a three piece sweet to work with you.

Yes you are complaining there is no where for you leave it.

Yes it is you own mode of transport you should be reconsidering.

In the words of lightning McQeen

Kachow

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Paris Hilton

Swindon speed cameras

Nope, they're already deactivated, and to prove the point have a big orange "NOT IN USE" bag over them.

Paris, because she forgot to put a bag over *her* camera.

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Black Helicopters

statistical analysis - @Steve etc

That second graph is very enlightening, particularly the left hand scale. Quite clearly it is not possible for that trend to carry on indefinitely, otherwise sometime around 2030 accidents would start to cause people to rise from the dead each year.

Even the true petrol heads aren't going to claim that for motoring?

So perhaps we were due for a flattening of the trend, and cameras have simply had no effect, or rather a positive effect that is virtually identical to the negative effect of lots of muppets slamming their brakes on as they come to the camera. Unfortunately in the absence of a control group I guess we cannot be sure.

However I think any qualitative assessment of the rules shows they are about revenue raising rather than safety for most of the organisations responsible for their installation.

There is also the wider 'civil liberties' argument, would you prefer a country where you are free to act irresponsibly, but then pay the consequences, or one where the laws prevent and admonish such behaviour even if there were no 'victims'. I favour the former as it allows citizenry to develop a concept of personal responsibility, whereas the latter encourages everything to be someone else's fault. Camera's are firmly a control measure, and I believe that is their primary purpose nowadays - the endemic effect they have to reduce the feeling of personal empowerment.

Unfortunately, for many their car is a bastion of personal power, and this is why this assault on their freedoms is so serious. If people would only take the other attacks on freedom as seriously we might actually have a chance of reversing the surveillance state.

Hey ho - mine's the one with a tin foil hood.

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@ John Stirling

"That second graph is very enlightening, particularly the left hand scale. Quite clearly it is not possible for that trend to carry on indefinitely, otherwise sometime around 2030 accidents would start to cause people to rise from the dead each year."

Your understanding is incorrect. The graph uses an exponential scale - it can never reach 0 or go negative regardless of the curve shape. One would expect an exponential type decay for a working policy, hence the graph and the axis is quite correct.

"Unfortunately in the absence of a control group I guess we cannot be sure."

A control group is not needed, the illusion has already been proven using the Empirical Bayes method (the Four year report - appendix H).

Regardless, your comment only reinforces my point, how can the SCPs make such grandiose claims when we ‘cannot be sure’?

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@ speed defenders

I've already commented about selfish twats in cars in another comments threads today - see:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07/15/dangerous_driving_sentences/comments/

Rather than repeat myself, I'll just pick up two points.

Steve writes: "... the speed limit has been ratcheted down to what is now generally considered to be unreasonable or unnatural speeds."

Eh? WTF is a 'natural' speed? And who are you to decide what is reasonable?

Juillen writes: "I think speed limits are a good, average guide rather than a permanent hard rule."

Wrong mate - they are not only a hard rule but the law. You can interpret them as a guide if you wish - but don't be surprised when your interpretation lands you a fixed penalty notice.

Why are petrolheads all as bolshy and stupid as their hero Clarkson?

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@Will councillors pay?

Back in the 1990's, Oxford City Council kicked a lot of the private cars out of the town centre. I can't remember the details, but it included banning some companies from having their car parking spaces.

Obviously there was one exception to this rule... the council kept their own car parks for their own staff to commute in as before...

(I have to stop typing now... otherwise I'll be off on a major rant about the city I now live in... Brighton's "traffic management"... total garbage... the only thing is clear is they are intentionally jamming up this town to make an excuse to bring in a congestion charge at the earliest excuse....)

Oh - and then there is that speed camera I pass everyday... put in between two junctions... meaning drivers go past it at 40mph, looking in their mirrors for a flash, and run into the car in front which has stopped to turn right!! There is no question about it - this camera is causing accidents.

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