back to article Blears pitches prize draws and online polls at young votes

Hazel Blears plans to reinvigorate local democracy and sprinkle some Miracle Gro on the nation’s grass roots by bribing voters with stickers and tickets for prize draws. The Communities Secretary has delivered up a white paper “setting out proposals to deliver a fundamental shift in power, influence and responsibility into the …

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Hmm...

"Amongst the ideas being pitched to make it cool to vote, are "schemes which recognise people who have turned out on polling day, for example every voter getting an ‘I’ve Voted’ sticker at the ballot box"."

So thats a sticker that may as well say beat me up I'm a nerd. The government REALLY don't understand playground mentality. As soon as the government say they are going to make something 'cool' I cringe.

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Flame

There are no words

that would do justice to the level of sheer fuckwitteriness that infests this Government.

Stickers and prize draws are not going to restore the faith in politics after the debacle that has been the last couple years - and I'm being kind by only referring to the average memory span of a voter rather than the length of time the uk.gov has been a complete shambles of sleaze, corruption, pocket-filling and self-serving ego.

Twats.

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If they want to encourage young people to vote ...

... engage with the way young people want to vote. There have been incredibly successful trials of telephone and internet voting in local government, but these have been repeatedly rejected by national government for fear it will devalue the vote, i.e. that if people can vote by a convenient means, they won't take it as seriously.

So in other words, encourage the young to vote, but not in such great droves that there's actually a chance of changing the establishment status quo.

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Stop

Absolute Power

Wasn't this an episode of Absolute Power? They sold the idea of spending £100 on an ID card by making it into a lottery.

Gimmicky idiots.

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Anonymous Coward

Votes for beer

They did this at my uni for the ever-pointless student union committee elections. Voting figures were so low (~3,000 votes out of a total student population of 25,000) that they offered free beer and chips. Voting figures jumped to a massive 4,500, iirc. Trouble is, like most students, the young voting population just don't give a damn because they feel their vote won't make a difference (and if it does, the elected then won't listen), and gimmicks are not going to make a difference. It's the whole "motivation by pizza" way of thinking (see: http://tinyurl.com/wcssw)

Also, could it also lead to escalation where successive governments have to introduce bigger and better incentives? I imagine it might get a lot of people to vote if in 20 years' time they're offering free cars or a night with Ann Widdecombe as a vote-sweetener <shudders!>.

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Coat

Get the yoffs involved

I hear shes planning on giving out free gun holsters to all yoffs that vote.

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Bronze badge

Lottery players voting?

Does anyone remember the person whose terrible maths got the lottery to withdraw scratchcards which required players to know whether -3 was above -1 to know whether they'd won?

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Childish!

Have you noticed how the immaturity of politicians (they are getting younger compared to 30 years ago) matches the immaturity of their ideas?

Whichever way you try to spin it, it IS paying for votes if you offer incentives. it is WRONG. if the politicians want to give the public a reason to vote how about they actually start listening to us instead of preaching at us, ignoring our views and riding roughshod over our freedoms and personal liberty?

That way the public might actually believe there was a point to voting rather than feeling that whoever we vote for will just give us more of the same with no real consideration of what Joe Public actually thinks. We dont respect our politicians, and that is a major reason fewer people vote now.

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Addressing the wrong issue

"Rather, “they should be viewed as an eyecatching method to increase awareness and engagement, especially with young people who have never voted and who might view the process with suspicion”."

Talking shite like this while holding public office should be made a crime. Everyone knows that kids (and adults) are not suspicious or distrustful of the process, it's the candidates that put people off voting.

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Linux

"forcing councils to respond to petitions from voters"

Like No.10 does?

"Yes. You've got 200,000 people to sign a petition. But we're still right and you're wrong. Why? Because we are. We know best. Big Brother always knows best. And we know where you all live now. And we've got your DNA and your fingerprints. So if you ever sign a nasty petition like that again we're going to send round some big men with hammers. So there. Nah nah nah nah nah. Sucks to be you."

Respond like that maybe? Cunning. Useless idiots, the lot of them. And they wonder why we don't have respect for politics anymore?

A Penguin, because he'd like this weather.

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Unhappy

more people might vote if they thought they had a decent choice!

either of the 3 parties will happily plunder your cash and waste it

either of the 3 will say one thing while the elections are on and do something completely different IF they win

either of the 3 lies on a daily basis without any repercussions

either of the 3 has people who have commited crimes and not been charged or repremanded

either of the 3 will still hammer £23G a year on their second homes funded by us, and of course pay their son a £35,000 salary to sharpen a pencil once a week!

the fact is that we all KNOW (not think any more) that politics is corrupt shite, run by incompetant idiots.

i still think people should have to pass a basic politics exam to be able to vote. too many idiots vote just because the sun tells them or because of one specific issue!

we should be more like france (woahhhhh i hear you say! stay with me...) in france the politicians are ruled by their electorate, over here we are ruled by our magalomaniac overlords (whome i dont welcome!). we have no say in anything that happens here. we should learn to say no.

for example this new car tax legislation. i drive a 2001 car that is already £200/year road tax. i do 4000 miles, mainly to and from work. its a 1.6 litre astra! why do i pay the same road tax as a brand new BMW 5 series? why should i be screwed that my vehicle isnt that fuel efficient... my car is years old! you cant retrospectively tax someone! also bumping up the road tax will mean the car is next to useless as who wants to buy an old car with high taxes? also the fact that i only do 4000 miles doesnt seem fair that i pay the same as someone who can do 104,000 - scrap road tax and add more to petrol (ooooh it has already hasnt it!) - that way is much fairer!

i say we just say 'fuuuuck offff' to the gov and just down tools for a day/ refuse to pay tax. we need to show them who is boss, they WORK FOR US... they are not the bleeding daleks ffs!

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@Liam

Well i gotta say, WELL SAID!

Agree with everything you said

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Coat

Check your dictionary

Politics: Gr. poly = many + ticks = blood-sucking parasites

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Taking it to the logical Blearsian conclusion

Offer them money if they vote the right way.

Either that or a chance to win a passion-filled night with New Labour's Poison Dwarf.

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Boffin

Rights and responsibilities

"Anyone with young children knows that a “sticker chart” can be highly effective in persuading junior to stop turning up his nose at greens, stay in bed after 4.30am and stop pissing all over the duvet."

nu labour have a solution to the latter - local communities to take over management of swimming pools. By the time all the mums have excluded the undesirable elements (single blokes, oldies, fatties, smokers, yoof, younameitwe'llbanit) swimming pools will be little more than de facto conveniences for kiddies, the local councils having closed all the establishments once dedicated to that purpose. At which point there will be a story in thr Daily Mail and the swimming pools will all close through want of custom. One less expense for the government. Never have a policy with one objective if you can have a policy with two. Applies to ballots, too -

Vote well, and vote often (if you're voting by post, phone, or e-mail).

// toxic icon for obvious reasons

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Coat

Bread and circuses

Next stop: you have to vote to get your ration allowance and televised throwing (suspected) racists and rapists to the lions

Mine's the white one with purple edging.

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"eyecatching method to increase awareness"

...is a long-winded way of saying "gimmick".

Really, stickers and prize draws? I know many of our ministers are over-promoted incompetents, but this would be laughed at if had come from the mouth of a junior Marketing Moron. If they want more people to vote then they must restore people's faith in the people and process of government and emphasize the responsibility we all have to vote and to vote wisely. Cheapening it with gimmicks will just make people think it matters less than they already do.

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What's the problem?

If more people vote, the influence of my vote goes down. Also, whoever wins has more credibility when they speak on "our" behalf.

Why would I want the government to spend *my* taxes on a scheme to reduce the value of my vote and give more credibility to the sort of idiot who thinks grown adults are more likely to vote if there are doughnuts on offer?

I despair. I really do. Forget "Absolute Power" and all its ilk. These people are beyond parody.

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@ By jimmy

"@ Liam - Well i gotta say, WELL SAID! Agree with everything you said"

hehe someone agrees with me... first time for everything i guess :)

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Pirate

Do what they say

Perhaps people might turn out to vote if the government of the time actually did what they said they would. Take for example a referendum on the european constitution which was promised and then denied. When voters see that they just become cynical.

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Anonymous Coward

@Hazel Blears

The only way to convince the electorate that it is worth voting is

...

wait for it ...

"To govern according to the electorate's demonstrated wishes".

If a government does this it shows that the votes matter and people see that they can make a difference.

Nothing else will convince the electorate until you stop ignoring them.

rant/ If you get the biggest demonstrations in modern times against your government there's a high probability you're not governing in accordance with the electorate's demonstrated wishes. /rant

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"There must be some way out of here"...

Said the Joker to the Thief. / "There's too much confusion, / I can't get no relief.

Anton Wylie explained this in his piece on Google and the end of "theories", just up. It is not politicians' imbecility, perversity, or wickedness that causes the "sheer fuckwitteriness that infests this Government" (Mike Crayshaw). It is the dominance of the scientifically respectable empirical psychology of "no-mind" - not Zen - but behaviorism.

> if the politicians want to give the public a reason to vote (Cris Page)

But a process externally identifiable as reasoning is difficult to observe, occurring at most for a few seconds after the observed phenomenon of head-scratching. Since the latter is also an effect of head-lice, the existence of reasoning in the experimental subject is difficult to infer. In any case it is of very minor importance as a determinant of behaviour. Have you heard the one about the paws of the dog being called "Food, Food, Food, and Sex"?

> how about they actually start listening to us

Oh but they do - it's called focus groups, and their importance must not be underestimated. A public meeting is a dangerous place for a politician (see Harriet's flak jacket). Besides, there are behavioural phenomena associated with massed groups of upset people which are inconsistent with the Standard Model of behaviourist psychology, reminiscent of chaos-theory types of behaviour-switch, and whose onset is difficult to predict. Things can so easily get ugly and spoil the make-up. Focus groups are excellent for identifying unhappiness factors - if you can make sure you eliminate people with the capability to hi-jack discussions and influence others (that's the professional politician's job).

> instead of preaching at us,

If you can do X, you do X. That seems to be the technological imperative of science, whether X = make nuclear weapons, or influence behaviour.

> riding roughshod over our freedoms and personal liberty

The only freedoms and liberties are those which the experimenter and the applied technologist set up - as constraints. Apart from that, there is only the relative happiness or unhappiness of the subjects, as evidenced by behaviours such as protest marches, writing to their MP, writing to the Daily Mail, grumbling down the pub.

> Sticker and prize draws

A well-established psychological manipulation technique, known for over 40 years as "token economics". This is derived from anthropological observation of the exchange of tokens (betel nuts, shark teeth, women) in primitive tribes, under a strictly functionalist interpretation of the data, i.e. whatever the customs "mean" to its participants is irrelevant, as is the wider semiotic context, which cannot in any case be replicated in a dispute-resolution procedure such as employer-employee relations, employer-union meeting, marriage-guidance facilitation. (And who'd want to dress down in feathers and body paint for a meeting anyway? BTW the Govt _will_ sanction public orgies if it has to).

> You've got 200,000 people to sign a petition. But we're still right and you're wrong. (Andrew Bolton)

In a population of 56 million, 200,000 signatures can be still be considered a statistically biased sample. Sorry, f**k off.

> the fact is that we all KNOW (not think any more) that politics is corrupt shite, run by incompetant idiots. (Liam)

Indeed it is. Tendering for local government works contracts is endemically by mafioso cartels of local contractors... But guess what. It doesn't matter what you know or think - your behaviour is all that matters.

> Everyone knows that kids (and adults) are not suspicious or distrustful of the process, (David Gosnell)

Correct. People instinctively believe the evidence of their senses, and trust other people unless they have reasons not to. Too much communing with your fellows risks too much agreement that the politicians may not like or know about - hence the public spy system. (And see also public meetings above). Far better to create artificial "tribes" and make damn sure that they don't exchange tokens in the first place. You make sure they don't _want_ to exchange tokens. You do this by injecting narratives of the type "soldiers bayonet babies", "barbarians switch off incubators in hospitals", "victims skin used to make lampshades", "prisoners thrown into mincing machines" (all lies) - albeit of a milder tone. "Men are rapists", "muslims are extremists", "pedo on every street" (all lies) - droned on and on and on. The stimulus you inject into the "public debate" depends on the sensation you wish to achieve - known from the 19th century. Repetition is a known method of reinforcement. Reinforcement is a known concept of animal psychology. (And you thought such a thing didn't exist!).

Cynicism is not a label for a state of mind - it was a practical philosophy which despised ease and pleasure. Ease and pleasure weakend the spine and the upper lip, things which sometimes need to be stiff to achieve the objective.

An end to cynicism in politics? Not unless you start thinking outside of their box. As their box is built on extreme materialism (physicalism), the way to go is extreme idealism. Not fantasies of utopia - but narratives in which ideas are the determinants of outcomes. Gird your loins and take a deep-breath, for here be (among other things) institutionalized religion, a grimpen you must pass over.

When enough people can change their minds, then and only then can the 100th Monkey phenomenon kick into play.

But you and I, we've been through that, / and this is not our fate. / So let us not talk falsely now, / the hour is getting late.

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Go

Just need to find the right prize!

I fully support the concept of a prize draw for those voting. It is just the proposed prize they have wrong. There should be one prize draw for each constituency, and the prize in each constituency should the votes of all losing candidates. Popular candidates winning over 50% of the vote get elected, but otherwise, the prize winner has a seat in parliament. Couldn't be worse than the tossers we currently have in the commons. This would actually provide an electoral system much more representative of the electorate, and at no additional cost.

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I choose...

to abstain.

Fuckwit A or Fuckwit B? Hmm..

We know politicians don't do most of what they promise, employ complete retards like Ms Blears (airsofter around the UK will know and loathe her for attempting to destroy our hobby because, clearly, plastic guns incite "Violent Crime". Cue massive rise in knife crime regardless. GOOD JOB!

I'd like to see more referendums about important stuff (you know, where I actually get a say not where I choose once in a blue moon who makes stupid decisions for me) and ministers who know *something* about what they are put in charge of Politics degree, years of political underlingitude != "I can make defence policy now!"; Pointless legislation that merely restates other existing legislation, banning public protests (becuase the MPs don't want to have to drive AROUND the commoners in their motorcade to go down the road to their 4th house, they might TOUCH one and catch MRSA)

Oh but yeah, they give me a sticker. I'll vote now.

But seriously.. why isn't there an Abstention tick box? I want them to know that I think all the options are abominations. Perhaps the Monster Raving Loonies are a good choice, at least they're honest.

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@Andrew Bolton

Thanks for posting what I was going to write!

Any Government that sets up a petition site which ignores or fobs off every single one that appears and then thinks it can force others to respond to petitions is suffering from severe rectal cranial impaction.

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@Luther Blissett

I don't know how long it took you to type that, ahem, stream of consciousness, but if you had simply mashed all the keys simultaneously you'd probably have produced something just as coherent far more quickly.

Just trying to help, daahlink.

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Coat

Training

"The young people are trained in tier 1 substance misuse and sex and relationships"

Don't forget the older people, we want training too.

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@teacake

Luther seems pretty coherent to me:

"In a population of 56 million, 200,000 signatures can be still be considered a statistically biased sample. Sorry, f**k off."

@teacake: "Just trying to help, daahlink"

So which part of the day disturbs you the most, teacake?

Luther: "Focus groups are excellent for identifying unhappiness factors - if you can make sure you eliminate people with the capability to hi-jack discussions and influence others (that's the professional politician's job)."

The part of the day where you have to make your mind up?

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Joke

Stickers?

"Anyone with young children knows that a “sticker chart” can be highly effective in persuading junior to stop turning up his nose at greens, stay in bed after 4.30am and stop pissing all over the duvet."

But it didn't stop me from getting into the fireplace and needing a bath afterwards. (True story. Being deaf meant that this happened far more often that I'd recall--and I still recall *none* of it, thankfully.)

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@Paul M.

"So which part of the day disturbs you the most, teacake?"

No part of the day disturbs me. Except the bit where I read about 'the dominance of the scientifically respectable empirical psychology of "no-mind" - not Zen - but behaviorism.' Which is just rambling, frankly. Luther may be making some valid points, but they're smothered in a thick layer of pseudo-scientific bollocks. You're clearly tuned in to Radio Luther, but I suspect most people will not get past the first paragraph of what is probably the longest comment I've seen on El Reg, almost twice the length of the article it's commenting on.

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Petitions and bias

"In a population of 56 million, 200,000 signatures can be still be considered a statistically biased sample."

I only studied statistics for a couple of years but I'm not clear on what is meant by 'statistically biased'. The worst thing I can think of about petitions is that the set of respondents is a convenience sample, but a petition isn't supposed to be a random sample anyway (nobody will sign who doesn't agree). We don't elect representatives and governments by polling a random sample of the population either.

In votes and petitions the set of people who take part over-represent that tiny subset of the population who actually care. Not really a fatal flaw with the process as far as I can see. It doesn't seem quite right that you're advocating ignoring a petition with 200,000 signatories because of the implication that 55800000 people don't care.

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Flame

Voting rights

Look, if someone can't be bothered to get thier backside down to the polling station and write on a bit of paper then who cares what thay think ? No e-voting via mobile, or prizes required, just an acceptance that if you don't vote you don't get an opinion.

And you don't abstain by not going - that's no better than not turning up 'cos you don't want to miss Eastenders. A spoilt paper (not possible with e-voting) is an abstenstion.

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Not sure...

...why they need to encourage voting. With Labours current popularity I should think there will be a record turn out to get rid of them.

As for incentives to vote, may be they should open up some sort of competition between the parties so they each offer different incentives. After all there shouldn't be a monopoly. The one with the best incentives will win! Oh hold on, they should already be doing this with their manifesto's and policies.

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Petitions (again)

"In a population of 56 million, 200,000 signatures can be still be considered a statistically biased sample. Sorry, f**k off."

Well duh, moron. Of COURSE it's statistically biased - you've got a sample of people who wouldn't sign the damn petition unless they agreed with it's proposal. Of COURSE petitions are one sided, you arrogant idiot with verbal diarrhoea. But then you get a government that says councils should respond to petitions while totally failing to respond to them itself. EVERY SINGLE petition on the No10 site is fobbed off, whether it has 10 signatures or 1.2 million. Why bother? Obviously to continue to maintain the illusion that the government actually listens to the people. And anyone that says it's always been like this is as delusional as you are, Luther. This nu-labour government has taken spin over substance to extraordinary heights - they spend 3 times more on advertising now than in 1997.

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Ian
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@Liam

Totally agree. Now what?

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Boffin

Simple:

1. Make voting mandatory

2. Add the "None-Of-the-Above" Candidate to all ballot papers

3. The "None-of-the-above" candidate should always get equal national funding for billboards and tv/radio/internet-advertising - although, personally, I think the cause sells itself.

4. If "None-Of-the-Above" polls higher than the other candidates, then all the other candidates are automatically banned from holding any public office for the next 10-years along with their respective parties - at least within that constituency.

That will definitely save democracy.

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Black Helicopters

@ Ian

ok, not sure where to go from here too... i'm all up for downing tools today cos i cant be arsed to work... lets discuss this in the pub eh?

seriously though i just dont know what we can do. im as eagre to get rid of this lot as everyone else but i just cant see the tories being any better (16% interest rates again and selling off all our services anyone? and lest us not forget the fact that it was the tories )

lib dems seem to care more for the people but the massive car taxes are enough to put most of us off (quoting about £1000/year isnt going to win many votes is it?)... although they may not percieve me as a mastermind criminal just because i choose to smoke the 'killer skunk' ;)

all i want is a government that isnt soley interested in feathering their own cap and listening to their employers (they are OUR employees as far as im concerned). enough of this old boys network where contracts are magically awarded to friends and their own companies ( i wonder how eaily BT would have been treated if a Nu Labour MP wasnt on the BT board?)

i do truly fear societal breakdown soon in this country... everyone i talk to is looking to emigrate!

im watching the black choppers now!

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Anonymous Coward

@Teacake

I didn't get past Luther's first paragraph when I initially started reading the comments. After your comment I went back to read it properly, as would be fitting.

I still didn't make it past the first paragraph.

Personally, when I see a long comment I tend to just ignore it and move on. Anything longer than say "I Choose" by Martin Lyne @ 10th 18:17 is just going to get ignored.

OH, and any paragraph longer than about 6 lines is also likely to be ignored.

And anything with more than one word in all caps is likely to be ignored.

It makes reading the comments that much easier that way.

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Gates Horns

@ Mike Richards

"New Labour's Poison Dwarf."???

I thought Harridan Harperson was of average height...

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Alien

@Luther@PaulM@Teacake

To be fair, I thought Luther's post was posted by AManfromMars.

Mine's the chicken dinner, with extra greens.

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Gates Halo

@Simple by Annonymous Coward

Fantastic idea, I agree with it wholeheartedly.

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Ian
Dead Vulture

@Liam

Are you sure you're not me in disguise?

Yep, totally agree. I can't bring myself to vote for any of them and my eldest son spoils his ballot paper in protest (Oo, hope I haven't brainwashed him...).

I did check out some bunch called the Libitarians, or something, but they make John Redwood look sane.

I suppose no one who wants power should be allowed to have it, thus we're screwed. This lot have to go though. Soon.

It'll be interesting to see if public apathy remains when the economy crashes. I was going to suggest a forum for finding a better way forward, but thats just bullshit. Perhaps the only hope is through a Taoist/ Zen Yin Yang attitude to it all. Sort of good and bad balance eachother out.

I'm rambling now. Ah well, the weekend, and drug fuelled stoat wrestling await

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Hazel nuts..

Blears is the eternal cheerful chattering chipmunk of the Blair Babes era. Nothing deters her optimism, not even the spectre of an economy that is going into free fall or the imminent electoral humiliation that is about to wipe out the NuLabour project once and for all.

Forget 'da yoofs',Hazel, here's the deal. Take one large slice of humble pie and place in mouth. Cover mouth with large sticker, you know, the one that says 'Do not open until after next election.' Eat humble pie.

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Anonymous Coward

It's only a gameshow... come on down !

I never cease to be amazed how how condescending Hazel Blears manages to be to young people. Especially considering she is a goblin herself.

Perhaps if New Labour actually came up with some popular policies that young people would vote for, then they might just turn out and vote anyway?

In fact that's probably a clue on how the rest of the public (who from the latest polls seem to be defecting from Labour in even greater numbers than ever) might be persuaded to even consider doing something other than dumping the little ginger midget and her useless colleages onto the dole queue and the next opportunity they get.

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Simple reasoning really

Labour voters are generally the poorer people

Poor people like prizes/free things

If we give people prizes for voting then

more votes for Labour

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@ Ian

Are you sure you arent ME is the question? haha

argggghh get out of my head... i thought i was the only space cadet stoat wrestler left, although i am branching out into badgers now... they put up more of a fight :)

my only thought is to emigrate - but with elderly parent (dad has parkinsons) i feel i cant move too far (want to go to OZ/NZ really!)

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NB
Pirate

I've made an effigy

of Hazel Blears, that to me represents not only her but the entire ZaNu-Labour-PF movement.

*stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab* *stab*

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@Thurstan R McDougle

>> Labour voters are generally the poorer people

Is this still true? Since NuLab seems determined to make life easy for billionaires and is grinding the faces of the poor more effectively than top-hatted Victorian Capitalists used to, I have my doubts.

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mkay mouse nearly Ready to say... I Say! ?

Hmm, encouraging people to vote. Is that a new idea? No, I Think not. Is IT compatible with the idea of discouraging people from voting in certain Key Areas 42 Swing the vote at the last minute?

The games are played in a myriad of ways. Some pleasant and some foul and some Simply Divine -Quite Immaculate and in deed and indDeed rather Kalman too.

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Flame

@NB, so thats why there is so much knife crime

When I were a wee Yoof, I used to believe that voting for the LibDems would sort everything out. As I have got a bit older I see the LibDems as useless and the other two as evil.

Everyone know never talk about politics or religion, so they don't. Both hot topics with me.

The labor government is a bit like ebay, got to power because they were the best, now able to use that power to do the most insaine and evil things and not be slapped down for it.

There has gotta be a point where blowing up the Houses Of Parlement is better than putting up with this.

The 'kids' don't vote because even the adults get nowehere with it.

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