A north London teacher has been banned from driving for 12 months, fined almost £1,000 and ordered to take an extended driving test after breaking the "most people in a Volvo S70" world record by cramming 12 passengers into the red saloon before squeezing behind the wheel. Abraham Gniwosch, of Tottenham, was pulled on 8 August …
He wouldn't happen to be a teacher at a clown college would he?
So why did the police get involved at all?
If he was only a danger to himself and his passengers, who cares?
"serious dramatic overloading"
Sounds like a Ken Brannagh treatment of Richard III.
Mine's the one with the fake hunchback.
Surely he's 131 shy of gross overloading?
Seems fair to me
So when an off duty police chief drives at 90mph endagering the lives of many others he wizzes past he gets a 42 day ban and £350 fine. Then you would totally expect someone going at 20mph and a few extra passengers gets a 12 month ban and £1000 fine.
'...he'd stopped the vehicle for "serious dramatic overloading".'
Were they thespians? (If so, did they like straight men?)
What's the legal situation here? I know that it's not necessarily illegal to have more passengers than seatbelts, but do they all have to have seats (or at least be sitting down) or can someone be sitting in the boot?
Pff.. only 12 and mostly children?
That's nothing! They're mostly children!
I once had 9 fully grown adults in a Volvo 440 :-)
Me driving, two in the passenger seat, 5 in the back and one in the boot.
Obviously not been to India.
In Delhi I saw Mum, Dad and 3 kids on a Scooter, In Hyderabad at least 13 on a TukTuk (Moto)
In a Volvo S70 they would get a whole busload and Livestock!!!!
could have been worse
Could have asked a couple to sit on the roof!
No this is ridiculous behaviour, someone should throw the roof rack at him.
Stupidity isn't a defence
In his defence, Gniwosch said he'd been "driving sensibly at no more than 20 mph", and added: "I'm not a quick driver, I'm a slow driver. I've been silly in what I've done, but not dangerous."
Yes, that's fine, but it won't stop another car, a large 4x4, van etc rear ending you with a closing speed of 40mph or more. People do drive drunk, don't pay attention, etc.
If that had happened, you'd understand the meaning of the term 'meat grinder'.
You fucking retard.
He's clearly not a physics teacher. Or, given the state of education these days, he might be.
Dead vulture, because if someone had crashed into *him*, the occupants would be in a physically worse state than it.
A bit harsh, I think
This was four adults and 9 infants; total weight of infants probably about 170kg, the load was probably the same as four grossly overweight adults, and not over the max load recommended by the manufacturers (450kg?). £1000 and disqualification is OTT, unless he was stopped the next day for the same thing.
Fools! Do you not see that this could only be a case in which a rogue timelord's Tardis, complete with army of deadly child-like automatons, materialised with it's chameleon circuit working but its bigger-inside-than -out widget severely burned out?
No doubt this seemingly idiotic "Gniwosch" (and does that look like an Earth name to *you*?) is in fact none other than the insidious timelord genius, The Master, and yet another diabolical plot is unfolding in his newly established headquarters in Tottenham.
And what do the forces of law and Order do? They let him off with a "driving ban", a paltry fine and a slap on the wrist!
When will the British courts get a grip on the real threats facing society?
Oh, the cops may have tried to confiscate the "Volvo" but we all know that the locks on a Tardis are isolinear when the plot demands it. Tthey'd never have gotten inside it to release the handbrake so they could tow it.
Do we get a Photo Exclusive of these 13 people in this volvo?
See, this is an example of overloading
"Gross overloading" and "squeezed behind the wheel" intimate that 13 ADULTS were in the vehicle.
Sounds like it was a bunch of kids.
If he'd crashed or someone crashed into him, they'd have been little (if any) safer in a minivan with 12 seats (where some of the seats are small pokey temporary ones).
Pah! That's Nothing!
When I was still a sixth-former back in the early eighties, I managed to cram seven of my friends into my mother's BL Mini - two in the front seat (one with their leg in the driver's footwell), three across the rear seat, one lying sideways on the floor beneath the seated guys' feet and one on their laps. We drove a couple of miles quite ok, apart from hitting the chap with the spread legs in the front, in the nuts every time I went into second gear. Eight young lads in the car and if we'd been stopped we'd have just got a rollicking from Plod.
Volvo S70? bet you could get at least twenty in there if you tried.
Hardly a record..
We've had 9 adults in a fiat shittychento a few years ago and the Volvo has to be at least double the size..
A bit OTT
Seems a bit of an over-reaction for what was quite common in the 70s. I know it would get in the way of NULabours plans to criminalise all of us but surly a discrete telling off would have achieved the desired result.
Using kids is cheating FFS. In days of yore a mate once managed 14 adult passengers in one of the old 3.5 rovers (the one with the wood interior). A taxi driver in North London took 7 of us in one of those little Datsun 120y's - two of them were 6'6". Another mate had 7 including driver in an old Mini, although the subframe broke the second time he tried it.
Not adult, not responsible, but we were neither at the time.
I think he should get an award.....
.... for "Greenest car sharer". It would certainly be a way of beating the Congestion Charge as well!
Mine is the one with the five passengers in each pocket.
Overloading? What about seat belts?
Isn't there all sorts of legislation about children having to be fitted into child seats or booster seats?
Six kids standing and sitting in the centre rear section must be six counts of 'not safely restrained' or whatever.
Also, didn't mention if there was a passenger side airbag, which could have been well dodgy for the child in the front.
The police request to confiscate the vehicle seems mild, given the circumstances.
I would have thought there could have been lots of charges in addition to gross overloading.
...and this idiot is a school teacher????
Pic, for the curious
Here's the car:
Less a "gross" overloading and more a baker's dozen, surely?
That is all.
..how many he'd have got into a V70...
A V70 would have been much more sensible. Could have fitted a few more in I reckon.
Taking kids home from birthday parties
When I was a kid, the unlucky mum (it was always the mother) that had hosted a kids birthday party also had to drive the kids home - I'm sure we had one in the front seat, 3 or 4 in the back seat, and 2 or 3 in the boot (station wagon mind - not a hatch-back). All except the kids in the boot would have had seat-belts on. Was this gross overloading? It seemed safe enough at the time, but that was 30 years ago, and the roads seemed safer then too.
In Malaysia and Thailand (and probably other parts of SE Asia), it's perfectly normal to see 5 or 6 on a moped.
Tax and insurance for 12 months without it being on the road
That's all the penalty needed.
Assume you can insure a car whilst banned
12... is that all?
I'm sure you could fit 18 in one of them if you tried hard enough.
12 would be about right for an S40
And to be honest i think the man should be commended.
Have you seen the price of diesel recently?
I bet that works out far better for the environment than the stinky buses
that drive round here.
They counted a couple of infants in the tally. That is cheating...
During the mad boozing week that followed the high school proms the year when I graduated we got stopped for gross overloading with 15 people in the car at 3am. The cop could not believe his eyes so he had us lined up on the road side to count us up. That was 15 teenagers in an old Volga estate. The cop let us off after finding out with dismay that the driver was absolutely sober (this was in the wild East, I would not expect to get off so lightly in Health-n-Safety paranoiac UK).
He was driving illegally, right? In that case, how did the speed camera catch him if he was only going 20?
Traffic officer PC Roger Brazel
Hang on a sec,
This has GOT to be a hoax. There is absolutely no way this could really have really happened.
No seriously - in North London there is no such thing as a 'Traffic Officer'. I've lived here for 10 years or so and never ever seen one. Seems they've all been replaced by speed cameras, of which there are quite a few.
@Steven Raith, well done mate, I'm right with you!
Every person in a car must have their own seat with a belt and it's the driver's responsibility to enforce it or take the consequences.
All you prats who're boasting about how many you've crammed in a car, you really are the sort of people who need to be taken out to a road crash site and shown the full horror of what a road accident is like. Lacerations, broken and torn off limbs and litres of blood everywhere, the awful sound of people, especially children, screaming.
Get serious, get sensible or get off the roads!
what's even better is the bbc site at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_west/7471102.stm where they've decided to provide a top quality public service with a reconstruction :)
That's nothing, I once managed to squeeze an American into a Granada.
Hang about, the BBC have added some mitigating info....
This is from the BBC website....."The court heard Abraham Gniwosch had been driving for five years "....
....so if 9 of them were infants then he could surely have argued that when he set out 5 years ago, there were only 4 adults in the car........
Paris.....I'd have her in the back of my car....and over the bonnet......
For those of you that think it is ok to do this
My friends and I once crammed 13 people into a Mini Clubman for a trip to Richmond ice rink.
Mark, Physics much?
"If he'd crashed or someone crashed into him, they'd have been little (if any) safer in a minivan with 12 seats (where some of the seats are small pokey temporary ones)."
Clearly kinematics isn't your strong point.
In a minivan [or a minibus, more realisitically - but I know what you mean] everyone has an individual seat, and these days, legally, a seat belt. It's not perfect, but if someone [say an off duty police car coming around a blind bend at 70mph with a dab of oppo lock on] rear ends you, you at least have less of a chance of being thrown around the cabin like soft, fleshy ping pong balls. Or your face ripped open along a the fragments of a broken side window, etc. Which is almost a certainty if you aren't secured. Which if you overload a vehicle, is what some people will be.
Young kids don't have a choice in the matter, it's the adults responsibility to make the choice for them and ensure they are safely seated in a car.
You complete mong. Have you ever been in even a minor shunt without a belt on? Read up on Newtons Laws of Motion.
I'm not saying the guy should be hung, drawn and quartered - but a bit of public ridicule at his clear lack of understanding of what is 'reasonably safe' and what isn't wouldn't go amiss.
Cheers AC 1605, looks like it's you, me, and only a few others getting the point here.
AC 1547, your ability to read is staggeringly poor, perhaps you were taught by Mr Gniwosch?
"Abraham Gniwosch, of Tottenham, was pulled on 8 August last year in ***Llandudno, Conwy***, the BBC reports. Traffic officer PC Roger Brazel told Llandudno magistrates he'd stopped the vehicle for "serious dramatic overloading".
Since when was Llandudno in North London?
If he had crammed four Americans in the Volvo, then I would be impressed...
Judging from some of these posts....
...that's nowt. Wen I were a lad we 'ad 135 people on't back of a hard-tyred push bike.
In 65 foot blizzards.
And no shoes. Just to go t' school. And then when we got there we got whipped because our rags 'ad threads hanging off. And thankful for it, mind.
And we 'ad to pay thrupence hap'ney fort privelege. And me ol' mum used to wash us by throwing wet stones from't stream at us. But at least the 'ouse was clean. Oh yes. Me ol' mum used to scrub the front step day in, day out with 'er knuckles cos we couldn't afford a brush. Even in the winter. In 85 foot blizzards. And she was thankful that she was so lucky.
Kids today. Don't know they're born.
Mutter, mutter, grumble, grumble.
@So why did the police get involved at all?
Wow, this has to win some kind of award for stupid AND complacent at the same time:
>"If he was only a danger to himself and his passengers, who cares?"
First off: he wasn't. He was a danger to everyone around.
Second: even if there hadn't been anyone around, how the hell do you get that it's ok to endanger a bunch of little children who don't get to have any say in whether they're loaded into this deathtrap or not? If he was only a danger to HIMSELF, that would be ok. Being a danger to other people is EXACTLY the point at which the state, the law, and everyone else has a right to butt in.
re: For those of you that think it is ok to do this
That would be... none of us.
What isn't ok is the reaction from the rozzers and to a lesser extent the judge. At least the judge wasn't drunk on his own power and wanting to "stick it to the man" who has no respect for his "authoritah".
You see, there's a HUUUGE fucking gap between "not OK" and "Illegal".
E.g. it's NOT OK to pick your nose. If you were fined £1000 for it, THAT would be wrong.
God this world has gone to the dogs. Everyone is afraid of doing anything for fear of being hurt. Sure, cramming that many people into the car wasn't a good idea and the fact of the matter is no one got hurt!!!
Yes they could have been hurt, but they weren't. Neither were any of the other people who talked about similar situations.
In almost any scenario chances of something terrible happening are somewhat better than having a piano fall out of the sky and crush you, but not much better. Considering the huge number of people on the plant and the huge number of people simultaneously doing stupid things - accidents are quite rare.
Consider the risks and if you deem it manageable go for it.
@ Andrew Adebowale
In my youth (must have been 1979 - 1980) we had 13 of us in an Austin 1100.
This included two people in the driving seat, one doing the pedals and one steering.
We were on our way to a party. We all got out at a village pub on the way, and could only work out how to get 11 of us back in
a ban for that!
And yet you watch those Police Camera shows and whilst you get some sense of smug satisfaction when the little scrotes get caught, all they get is a ticking off for offences that should be sending them to jail or better still breaking rocks and castration to ensure they don't spawn any more of themselves, yet this kind of offence carries a ban!
Okay maybe dangerous but it sounds like this was blown way out of proportion considering the amount of kids being carried on people's knees.
Hmm whilst seat belts are important and I make sure that all occupants of my car wear them. And I go through the necessary fuss of the booster seats , plus I carry extras. However as a child of the seventies , I do find this fuss over seat belts and booster seats a touch nannyish. We didn't have rear belts until the late eighties yet we were not dying like flies. Sheesh the only people he'd likely to have harmed are the other occupants of the car. They did have FREE WILL. They did not have to travel in the car with him. He was not speeding and was unlikely to have harmed anyone else other than the passengers.
Glad to see that Plod is putting in lots of effort to catch the master criminals. Now we have proof that traffic cops do exist (cos I ain't seen one for years) can we hope for a campaign against the chavs who treat the residential roads in my neighbourhood as a racetrack. Or will Plod go after the fat nobodies in company cars who drive past my kids school at 50 mph? Fat chance. Needless to say PC Plod once again shows how he only goes after the easy crimes. Probably couldn't find anyone walking in a built-up area during the hours of daylight whilst in possession of a camera.
"Gross overloading" should be judged on the weight of people in the car, not on their number. I can quite imagine it would be possible to find 4 adults who weigh more than the occupants of this car (given that many of them were small children). Yet presumably it'd be quite legal to transport the heavier adults. Daft.
They should have been done for not wearing seat belts (unless the Volvo has 13 seat belts of course).
@ Tim Spence
I'd like to give the coppers the benefit of the doubt and presume that asked to take the car away so he at least had to buy a new one before driving despite the driving ban.
But, you're right...it's harsh...after all, no one drives when they're not licenced, taxed, MOTd and insured...