"selling off the frequencies"

This may be a dumb question, but who is going to pay money for them? Clearly the traditional broadcasters aren't 'cos they've all moved to digital in this brave new world, right? Who else is likely to be interested?

Deluded A--holes Brigade

Here I am in Scotland, less than 30 miles from Edinburgh. I can get DAB - I can get BBC Radios 1/2/3/4/5/6/7/1Xtra/Asian Network and World Service. However I can't get BBC Radio Scotland - or in fact any commercial stations - what a great selling point that is!

Even when I do get it, it's awful sound quality - I'm old enough that I can remember when FM stereo used to be turned on and off by the BBC - DAB is mostly a return to that world with additional warble (the warble that Radio 3 used to give when you had too strong a signal). It eats batteries on a portable receiver about 3 times faster than an analogue set so presumably something similar is true of it's mains consumption.

So to recap - reduction in choice, quality and energy efficiency - wow! where do I sign up?

DAB as standard for cars

The key to this would be getting DAB as standard in cars, as let's face it, unless it starts to happen in cars there's no way the general public will allow FM to be switched off. I certainly wouldn't be happy about being forced to upgrade my car stereo right now, just for the same of listening to the one radio station I use in the car. I'd give up on radio and just stick to my iPod probably unless Vauxhall start shipping the radio's dirt cheap after market :)

Analogue Cars

So who is going to pay to have the highly integrated proprietary manufacturer's head unit in my car upgraded to DAB when they switch analogue FM off? I won't be, so I guess I wont be listening to any radio whatsoever after that, as that's the only time I do at the moment. The 6 disc CD changer might get a bit more use, or perhaps I'll just enjoy the sound of the engine instead, its often better.

but I *don't* want DAB -

Digital is being forced on us - I for one don't want it.

and just to be clear - FM audio performance is *better* than DAB - don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

the real question is why is it being forced on us, and by whom. No doubt it will be money related, but perhaps also there is a more sinister reason....

But..

DAB IS shite - coverage is crap and unless you've got a good signal you get nothing. At least with FM you can get a signal even if its noisy. Given that some commercial "national" radio stations can't even get nationwide FM coverage sorted out (Classic FM being a prime example... but then again they seem to be DAB mad so I guess giving people shite FM reception with excess audio compression is just them trying to force us all to DAB) what hope in hell do we have getting DAB sorted out.

Of course the problem with cars is that manufacturers went down the integrated system route and now its not practical to replace a radio in car because you loose all the things like the display in the dash board and the use of the controls on the steering wheel.

Even if there were units that worked when I plugged them into my Saab 93 (and integrated with the Saab CD multichanger and the third party Ipod controller) why should I be forced to spend a lot of money upgrading because the government want to get their greedy little paws on the revenue from selling off the old FM spectrum.

Analogue radio - just kill it already!

"FM should be switched off by 2020" good grief - why wait so long? It's this procrastination that's leaving the public dissinterested. Announce the complete analogue switch off in 2012, change to DAB+, get the car manufacturers on board and make sure the reception coverage is up to snuff and watch the public move over in droves. This procrastination drives me nuts. Sure there will be some backlash (not least from those with non upgradeable DAB radio's - which includes me) but that's just tought titty. Get on with it!

Satellite Radio

I'm wondering if anyone really gives a rats ass about this because it won't be too long until the UK gets Satellite Radio. Perfect for the car and bound to take-off at home (no pun intended) because of the higher quality* and greater choice* (*err, wasn't this supposed to be DAB?)

Paris Hilton, because even she doesn't like a puddle of mudd.

In theory, good - in practice, bad plan!

A few years back, I bought a (good) DAB radio to listen to on my way to/from work on the bus. Took me all of two minutes to realise that DAB is not at all good on the move!

Every now and again, I get the thing back out and give it another shot - every time, I've put the iPod on before I'm even two minutes up the road!

OK, so perhaps living in the Granite City has something to do with the piss-poor reception too - but still, if DAB won't work on the move in all environments and all weather conditions, and do it at least as well as FM then shutting down FM will effectively shut down radio... Bad plan folks!

Great.

Experience digital sound quality, the DAB promos shouted.

Well, if by quality they meant an over compressed media stream using a lossy format, then they were correct.

With many radio stations storing their music in already compressed form on hard drive libraries, and then re-compressing during broadcast for DAB, the sound quality quickly drops to terrible levels.

One reason I'm in no hurry to get a DAB player.

Missing the blindingly obvious

There are many simple reasons that don't require a degree to figure out.

1) The units are too expensive. The cheapest DAB units start at fifty quid. You can buy a regular radio for under a tenner.

2) The average person doesn't want the extra channels. We like BBC and local radio. And we can get the regular channels on our good ol' analogue radio.

3) Most people who might want the extra channels can listen via the internet or their TV. They don't need to spend fifty quid on a radio.

The only way you can get people to switch is to knock the price down by at least half. You can't tell me that the manufacturing costs of DAB radios massively exceeds that of analogue radios. It's not like you have iridium-plated nanoprocessors in the darned things.

OK, TV I could take, but this timescale is nonsense

I could just about stomach the change to Digital Terrestrial TV, but irritatingly my really not very old Panasonic hard disk/DVD recorders (DMR-E85H) with integrated analogue tuners will be effectively obsolete and no amount of messing about with external digiboxes will make it user friendly so the final environmental cost of the switchover in my household will be three "portables" (in places like the workshop), two still working VCRs, a DVD recorder, the two Panasonics mentioned above, two TV/VCR combis, and half the functionality on the TV/PC monitor combi in the kitchen, plus the 12v unit thats handy in the car or when either the power goes out or we do. I'll discount my handheld as its Argos-bought rubbish.

We have one Panasonic TV with both types of tuner and one other TV with a spare Scart so at least I can make that work reasonably, so thats a lot less TV viewing we'll be doing (and we are fairly discriminating even now), and no recording/timeshifting under current plans, even if there was anything much on the other channels. - I always thought they should keep one or two analogue channels, perhaps a "Best of BBC" and a "Best of the Rest" for those of us just wanting some background stuff on our old sets, until realistically there are so few of these around no-one will notice. I would willingly give up all the digital shopping channels to keep enough airspace for these two

Changing to radio will be worse for the environment and the pocket. Much worse. I have a DAB, and I quite like BBC7, for all the predictable reasons so I'm not greatly opposed in principle. We also have a pocket sized digital unit but battery consumption (we use rechargeables) is very high. The cars and motorbike (yes, really) all have manufacturer specific radios, so its not like I can pop down to Halfords and slot in something DIN sized when these "go dark". It may be a long way off but I like stuff to last and dont intend my vehicles to be landfill or scrap anytime soon, although I concede that the lack of oil in 10 years may affect my transport more than not being able to listen to BBCR2/R4 whilst commuting. I have loads of small and not-so-small radios scattered about the house so we can listen independently whilst doing other things. Its good for the brain and our sanity. So those are all going in the bin as well then it seems.

Going for just a European standard for the benefit of car manufacturers is no good. What about the people on the edge of Europe who like to listen to countries over the border that will still be on old tech? Cars being the mobile things they are this is a much bigger issue than TV. I made enquiries about FM switchoff a year or so ago and was refused answers, probably as I asked the question at the same time as highlighting the problems.

I agree the change is needed, but in both cases there should be a long term "lingering" service for those with old tech that they don't wish to or (for many) can't afford to replace until they really have to, and to reduce the impact of cutting short the "whole life" environmental costs for those of us not hung up on having the very latest kit all the time. Certainly the two year switchover I have seen mentioned in other media today is ludicrous. And I haven't even started on the concerns that small broadcasters would have, as well as the other services (all your traffic-master links on your GPS will fail, they go over FM, so thats more kit for the chop).

What gets me most is someone will dress the change up as being green when in fact it is only the taxpayer subsidising equipment manufacturers, and loads of kit in otherwise fine working order being condemned by the onward march of "progress". Unfortunately I can't see someone at least sending working stuff to developing countries as at least they have done with with old PCs

Deceased Equus flogging.

"Next will come massive promotion of how great digital radio is."

I think that should have read "Next will come massive promotion of how great digital radio could be."

Having been one of the 'early adopters' of digital radio I was distraught to discover the reduction in audio quality that moving to digital provided. Low bit rates that are unacceptable to anyone interested in music are the primary factor in my moving back (up?) to analogue FM. When you factor in the inability of a digital car radio to maintain signal coverage over even a short journey together with the lack of a European wide standard (or rather, at the moment, too many standards), this is a hopeless proposition.

Unless we all move to the superior standard used in Europe then they are simply flogging a dead horse.

@hey_may

As a regular visitor to the US I have to say that XM radio isn't that good. Yes its good when it works but get anything over your head (like power lines) and the reception just goes out of the window which doesn't work too well in cities, and of course you have to pay for it - which does mean that you dont get those stupid annoying adverts.

I think the "crank up the power" attitude of the FM radio stations in the US is the way to go : 100,000 watts of transmitter power seems to do quite well for WTOS-105FM in Maine, and their music taste is good too.

Who are we kidding

It's going to happen and all of our radios will join all of our TVs in landfill, and we'll get charged for that as well.

Anyone up for organising a mass transport of TVs to Downing street when the anaolgue signal goes poof?

Of course they could allow us FM rebroadcast rights, so we can continue to use all of our old kit for another few decades.

Forced obsolescence should be paid for from the cabinets salaries.

A very good reason to buy a DAB radio:

No cricket coverage on FM.

Another great triumph for technology

The problem with ... is that ... move around, it ... Norman Collier.*

* If you're too young to remember Norman Collier.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Collier

It is terrible

I used to have DAB in the car and I travelled from Devon to Worcester every week. I found it much more frustrating that FM and I was glad when I went back to FM. As others have said at least with FM if you have a bad reception it will still work.

Make DAB work as well as FM and I may try it again. Until then FM is the better service by far!

Some questions

What lessons were learned from the transition from MW and LW broadcasting to FM? How could these be applied to the transition from FM to DAB, and what is *not* applicable?

Is there any component of a DAB receiver that, due to "intellectual property" encumbrances, is not available to the general public?

DRWG

The name 'DRWG' has been the source of much Welsh merriment. 'Drwg' [droog] means 'evil/bad' in Welsh.

Oh, good idea!

After all, it worked well for Microsoft and Windows Vista.

Oh look, an IT angle!

DAB+

Isn't DAB+ the better standard? Even a BBC report a year or so ago slaughtered the DAB standard and it's quality, saying FM was superior!

Car Radios...

Most modern cars have radios (and the associated controls) integrated into the dashboard - it's going to be very unpopular if these all suddenly become redundant in four years time!

But then I suppose someone will peddle a DAB-to-FM in-car transmitter so you can listen to digital quality audio via a £5 of tatty electronics that make it sound like you have socks stuffed in your ears. I think a little bit of a reality check is required by the folks behind DAB

Duh!

The reason most people haven't adopted it as the reception is still too patchy. I am only 30 miles west of London but I still can't get The BBC on DAB.

if they kill off FM

thats the death of radio...

im already sick of how many millions of the TV LICENSE goes to RADIO presenters! its a joke!

the fact is people dont want DAB its shittier signal and hard to get too... whats the need? FM works fine for most.

if i need to listen to radio at home i use the V+ box as its hooked up to a big AV amp anyway.

kill off dab and stop us all subsidising technology that nobody wants!

TMC

Small point - I know that TMC in the UK is transmitted by Classic FM (and, I agree, the coverage of TMC is bad in the UK compared to some regions of mainland Europe). Does anyone know what will happen to that service in 2020 ? I guess a lot of the stand-alone units will be replaced by then or you can pay for and replace the external TMC-FM receiver (on TomToms at least) - no idea what one would do with an integrated car set.

What other services hang off the back on FM ? Any idea if the muppets at OfCom have thought this through?

Been to Japan recently?

See many digital radios there? No, they love FM and that's good enough gadgety advice for me. Most of the owners here in the UK must have got them as giveaways on Virgin - the BBC can't say that Virgin haven't helped spread this (as well as so much other) drivel.

Icon? From my cold dead hands...

A counter point of view...

I can't believe I'm actually sticking up for something against the prevailing view. Next thing I'll be promoting Vista and saying how quick it is (not!).

Anyway, I'll stick my 2p in and see how it goes:

I liove DAB, I live London and I have no problem with reception at all. I have two radios (overpriced I agree, however get the volume and the price will drop in months), and will shortly buy a 3rd. These are classic stand-alone units, not the hook up to the hi-fi (with obligatory Jesus cable, see Register passim) type and then bitch about the quality.

I like the numbers of channels, I like the speed of tuning, I have no problems with the quality at all.

I haven't listed to FM for years now, all the stations I want are on DAB and I'm happy with that.

So as far as I'm concerned go BBC, turn that FM off and go DAB.

paris, coz she hasn't a clue about DAB, FM,AC or DC.

Explanation please?

So what is the difference between this DAB, and the digital radio they are promoting in the US under the misnomer of HD Radio? I have one of those in my car, and ignoring the many dead spots one near my work, and two near my home) the clarity is amazing. Even HD AM is better than analog FM, and HD FM is CD quality or better. It alos permits sub-channels.

-Chris

dab is ok

Am I the only person in the country who listens to DAB and finds it perfectly ok? The reception where I live is better than most FM stations.

For me, the best thing about DAB radio is that I can listen to Test Match Special without having to cope with the crackle and noise of long wave. That single fact has lead me to outfit every room with a DAB radio.

DAB is like ITV Digital

DAB is like ITV Digital, cr*p. It's over compressed and doesn't offer any real benefits over analogue FM transmissions. When it cam out it wasn't such a bad idea but now it's obsolete and they would be a lot better offering a decent DAB2 standard and turning both FM and DAB off asap.

DVB only took off because the boxes were cheap and the Beeb took over from ITV digital. Everyone knows you need a digi box. Even with DVB now that HD is on the horizon the technology is going to need an upgrade. DAB was too compressed, cam out too expensive, sounds worse than FM and has been around too long and has clearly been over taken.

DAB - local radio please???

I would like to get a DAB radio, but I've been waiting and waiting and waiting for OFCOM to get off their backsides and sort out getting a mutiplexer!!! for my local area so I can hear the local station I want. Why bother changing if I its not worth my while doing so.

Until then - I will be staying on FM and LW (for the cricket).

Mine's the white one with the white hat....

The issues are simple....

1) We can easily switch off FM and have a digital radio service.

BUT....the replacement, whether it is the current DAB system or a better (DAB+?) system, must be properly thought through....as things stand right now, over 10 years AFTER the launch of DAB, is that some area's still don't have ANY reception.

This needs to change.....we need 100% coverage of digital radio, BEFORE any decision to shut down FM.

2) Currently, the DAB frequencies are allocated by OFCOM, who have chosen to only licence a few....

So, to kick off then, we need a wider range of frequencies (ie multiplexes) to be licensed immediately, so that existing DAB stations can broadcast at higher bit rates and hence we can have quality digital radio (coz DAB at 192kb sounds pretty good!), rather than pi**-poor 128 kb (or less), which sounds awful.

3) With more multiplexes available, every local BBC radio station can be heard of DAB, in their local area.

Get these up and running and then local commercial operators will move across from FM, once more people listen to the BBC on DAB.

The driving force for uptake of DAB has always been the BBC, so get them behind on a local basis and the rest will follow....

4) The entire DAB network mainly uses the old 405 TV transmitters....so, we need OFCOM to pressure Arqiva to ensure that each of these, including the relays, are all fully operational and running at the right power levels to provide 100% coverage as in point 1).

Only after all the above are sorted, should we think about switching off FM.....but as you can see, to do the above wouldn't take long as the infrastructure is already there....!

Job done.