back to article Pirate Bay bitchslaps Swedish law with SSL

The Pirate Bay plans to offer encryption services to people who use the BitTorrent tracker site in a direct attempt to combat a new controversial snoop law passed in Sweden last week. Peter Sunde, who is one of the men behind the notorious tracker site, said in a blog post yesterday: "Many people have asked me what we’re …

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Jobs Horns

Excellent!

I love this lot!

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Black Helicopters

How long before...

... All computers are pre-shipped with government sanctioned key-loggers just to get around "criminals/drug-dealers/tourists/pedo-files"...

Remember, everyone is guilty until proven themselves innocent.

Remember, if you have nothing to fear, you have nothing to hide.

Remember, you can always trust the government with all your data.

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Alien

Honey...Pots of IT.

"... All computers are pre-shipped with government sanctioned key-loggers just to get around "criminals/drug-dealers/tourists/pedo-files"..." .... By Anonymous Coward

Posted Monday 23rd June 2008 11:16 GMT

Methinks that is rather ".... just to get around "criminals/drug-dealers/tourists/pedo-files"

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Alien

But how...

How did this law even get passed? It's a blatant human-rights violation! I would've expected better from (mainland) Europe...

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Thumb Up

It's the end of the net as we know it

and I feel fine!

If they actually manage to make this work, then every other government on earth will leap on the bandwagon too. Governments sure do love snooping on their citizens and the internet sure is a thorn in their collective sides right now.

As for appealling to ISP's to ban Sweden, I have to say "LOL". ISP's absolutely hate their customers using bittorrent so if a web site that is a notorious figurehead for same exhorts them to do something that could be seen as promoting or enabling the cause of file sharing (regardless of whether it has perfectly legal applications or not) they will more likely go out of their way to do the exact opposite.

But I love their chutzpah.

GO TPB!

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Silver badge

Sigh

Buying their own country... Now banning sweeden from the internet. These guys could teach whitehall something about grandstanding.

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Anonymous Coward

Contradictory

So PP's servers are outside of Sweden? With you so far...

So PP sets up SSL so that the Swedes can access their servers without being snooped on...

...and at the same time requests that nobody talks to Sweden over the internet. Indeed, ISPs should block traffic to Sweden!

So, how does the PP traffic get back from the server to the client in Sweden then?

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!0 out of 10 for the idea, but problem with the execution

I think its unlikely that the Tier 1 providers will cut links to Sweden to aid lawbreaking.

While I don't agree with snooping I am concerned that the sick element of society (such as paedophiles) will exploit this, do the Pirate Bay really want to be associated with this?

Also it will lead to governments making concerted efforts to break encryption such as RSA (as they are getting to the point where they might have enough horsepower) which will undermine secure transactions on the net such as banking and shopping because once the genie is out of the bottle there (the secrets of how to break it are revealed) there is no putting it back in so all of your data will be open to anyone that wants access.

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Flame

Re: How long before

Pffft! As long as I can still use my own screwdriver and welder... ;-)

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Unhappy

I though pirates were evil?

Thats what it says on my DVDs. But this lot are actually trying to help consumers, while the evil corporations are trying to spy on us and monitor us. It's like everything is backwards man. I'll never trust anything I'm ever told on a DVD again.

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Time for everybody to use SSL all the time.

It does of course cause issues with everybody using name-based virtual hosting (myself included), but that can be solved using the server_name extension for TLS.

Viva la revolution.

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Black Helicopters

Re:How long before...

"But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother."

The End

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Personal Encryption techniques

Raising awareness and use of personal encryption techniques, over due but TPB are the people to do it.

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Alert

Don't we have this already?

Don't we have this in the UK already? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIPA

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@Anonymous Coward

> I love this lot!

You wouldn't if you'd spent the last few years writing some software and then you saw it being downloaded for free on a Bit Torrent site.

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Ash
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Torrent swarms

Unless you use a program like Peer Guardian, this is snake oil.

Swedish ISPs and MAFIAA goons get IP addresses from getting a hold of the torrent file, downloading the target, and seeding. They then harvest the peers who connect for IP addresses. SSL will only protect against knowing which .torrent file was downloaded, not the swarm which the torrent connects to.

Secure VPN tunnelling or onion routing (a la Tor) go some way to helping protect against this, but only marginally. Plus, bandwidth overhead becomes a major issue.

This may win the battle, as they say, but it won't win the war. To do that, we need to get the law overturned. That means we need more than some minority Swedish political party to stand against it in Europe.

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Anonymous Coward

@the cowardly thieves who will post soon ....

the piratebay is about distributing stolen intellectual property.

ever been burgled? would you feel good knowing your ex-property was on offer in the local pub?

the law protects human dignity.

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Anonymous Coward

PirateBay are Great

...but I really wish that fundamentally their site wasn't easing people to copy stuff. That is, I like their attitude and really hope they can make a 100% legit business out of it in the future.

Thumbs up to the owners of the Peugot 205 GTI (the one with the big engine) - I love their legal letters!

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So, that's about 10 minutes

until SSL is banned in Sweden.

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Pirate

the usual strawman

Someone breaks into my house and nicks my TV. Now I have no television and I can't watch Big Brother.

Someone infringes my copyright and copies a computer program I've written. I still have my computer program, but I've lost a potential sale.

Nope, I don't see the similarities.

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Unhappy

Human dignity?!?!?

[quote]the piratebay is about distributing stolen intellectual property.

ever been burgled? would you feel good knowing your ex-property was on offer in the local pub?

the law protects human dignity.[/quote]

If Pirate Bay is akin to being burgled, then this law is akin to allowing government goons to rifle through your bins, read your mail and listen to your phone calls.

How does that constitute human dignity?

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Burgled?

I thought this was about copyright infringement, not theft.

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Alien

Money ....Honey Pots of IT

Honey...Pots of IT.

By amanfromMars

Posted Monday 23rd June 2008 11:41 GMT

Oops...... spot the deliberate error .... "All computers are pre-shipped with government sanctioned key-loggers just to get around "criminals/drug-dealers/tourists/pedo-files" which is probably rather more accurately reported/spun/transcribed ...All computers are pre-shipped with government sanctioned key-loggers just to get into and around criminals/drug-dealers/tourists/pedo-files.

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Flame

@ IP rights fascists

How would I feel if something I spent the last ten years of my life working on, suddenly available on a P2P network? Well, provided that I didn't put it there myself, and it wasn't loaded with backdoors, or some other "bad things". I would probably feel about the same as the guy who goes to the patent office only to find out that his next door neighbor patented the exact same thing 3 days earlier. And that would be, screwed, shit out of luck, and cleaning my firearms for imminent use. That is why you keep these kind of things secret, off the net, and properly protected.

Sure, your users may complain that they can't make a proper "backup copy", of your software because you have crippled it in some way. But thats what you have to do. And yes, people will steal your idea, make clones, look alikes, work alikes and every possible legal and in some cases illegal variation of your work. Why would they do this? Because your work is good, took a long time and has value to them or others and they want a slice of your pie. This is basic human nature and no amount of legislation will be able to stop it. You should, as some more enlightened people do, compensate for this in your projected revenue stream.

Imagine a world in which this didn't happen. Where reverse engineering didn't exist and cheap knock-offs were not available. imagine a world where you have to pay royalties for anything based on a wheel, or pulley, or fulcrum, to the original inventor or descendants. How about paying for a right to use license for every PN junction in your new digital toy, or every transistor in you latest bit of kit. Would that be a world you could live in?

Instead we have accepted a world in which you can be sued if your "round thing that helps things move", provides a similar function to another "round thing that helps things move" or for figuring out that you can copy the "round thing that makes things move", and give it to all your friends, because they like things that move too.

Give up, get off your high horse, either put your stuff out there, get what you can for the few seconds that you can, and contribute to the forward motion of mankind, or stay in your dark little closet, muttering to yourself "ooo, look at me, I made a wheel, I will call it precious"..

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Simple Solution

A simple solution and one no doubt already in the pipeline for defeating this Swedish Law is Botnets hammering the living heck out of the servers that the Swedes decide to use to monitor all traffic crossing their borders.

How long, I wonder, before they realise that actually trying to enforce this law will be a giant pain in the rear. The Swedish Government have just painted a huge "hit me" sign on themselves. Any server they try to use in enforcing this law will become a botnet magnet overnight.

Meanwhile, Pirate Bay of all people appear as the saviours of our freedoms, when in fact they and other dubious file sharing sites played a large part in encouraging the Swedish Parliment to pass the law in the first place.

The crazy part of the whole thing is if the Swedes had set the boundaries of the law better, ie., only targeting p2p protocols and other traffic going to sites suspected of illegal activity. Then no one could have any real complaint that would withstand serious scrutiny.

I hope the party challenging them over privacy are successful. A blanket snooping law on all internet traffic is despicable and does seem to have some serious flaws in regard to human rights regarding privacy.

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Gates Horns

What good is SSL in this scenario?

Didn't the NSA pretty much develop AES? They don't strike me as one's to shoot themselves in the foot and make their lives genuinely more difficult.

I'd trust AES against almost all casual nosy parkers but to trust it against governments in cahoots with the NSA and Echelon? Well I suppose they count on the fact that most would and do...

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Pirate

Software patents are fundamentally wrong!!

Lets face it software patents came about because businesses were/are too lazy to make money creatively. The words Cash and Cow spring to mind.

Software houses do an excellent job of making amazing software and the programmers do require recognition and recompense, but ultimately the money made to pay for them should come from a more creative business practice.

If all software were free, then everyone would be more productive and spend their money on the products and services that have been more creatively thought out, both by the use of this free software and by more directly related services, such as support. One only has to look at Sun, or HP to see that if you offer software for free you can sell Hardware for it to run on.

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Paris Hilton

@ pctechxp - We need a new term

If someone is compared to nazi's then we can invoke Godwin's law.

How about when someone tries the "Oh Noes, think of teh Childrens"?

pctechxp wrote - "While I don't agree with snooping I am concerned that the sick element of society (such as paedophiles) will exploit this, do the Pirate Bay really want to be associated with this?"

I hereby propose Neil's theorem, to wit:

"As a forum thread discusses encryption of internet traffic, the probability of invoking the paranoid fear of a Pedo with a computer approaches one."

Paris, cos she's old enough to be safe...

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Anonymous Coward

Office 2007 to NHS staff (the missus in this instance), for £18 ?

Woe the day, for Microsoft, Adobe et al, when the only way to get software is to pay for it, their revenue will take a nosedive as the Shareware, and Freeware mob actually get their act together to supply competent product that does the same job - at a fraction of the price; the additional income will serve to enhance the product, and marketing, considerably.

Many small business we deal with (support - not sofware supply I might add!) couldn't begin to afford full retail, or licensed copies for every member of staff.

What's the old saying "give me the child and I will give you the man" (thank's I'm aware of the religous group its attributed to) when the young guy can't get hold of a free copy to learn with, he will take the alternative....... and stick with it.

Reminds me of the notion that every "stolen" .mp3 on a hard disk represents a lost sale, absolute bollocks.

Having said that, can anyone explain to me how Microsoft can afford to offer, direct, a copy of Office 2007 to NHS staff (the missus in this instance), for £18 ?

(and lots more software at similat prices) if it isn't 'cos the rest of the punters are paying well over the odds for it?

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Bronze badge

Like that Mike

Bloody shareholders!

That bit about government sanctioned keyloggers (dons tin-foil hat) how do you know that every NIC in the world wasn't compromised at birth?

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2points to make:

@the douchebag who compared torrent use to burglary:

#1 IP property != physical goods with real value. 1 downloaded movie != 1 stolen dvd.

#2 Even burglars are entitled to a fair trial where you are proven guilty. These new laws do away with such pesky little things such as privacy and human rights.....

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@Justin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Encryption_Standard

"The cipher was developed by two Belgian cryptographers, Joan Daemen and Vincent Rijmen, and submitted to the AES selection process under the name "Rijndael""

FYI

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@Anonymous Coward, re: Office 2007

Tell her to get me a few copies!

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Boffin

Prometheus similarities

If it wasn't for Prometheus, where would we all be???

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus

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Unhappy

@Colin

And suppose the servers the Swedes will be using to snoop will be hardened against DDoS using "bulletproofing" methods?

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Alert

@@the cowardly thieves who will post soon

Hahaha....oh the irony, Mr Anonymous...Ahahaha....Are you actually as stupid as you appear to be?

Try not posting anonymously, you pathetic, confused COWARD.

Let me guess, are you an `artist` or some kind of leech who works for a record label or publishing house? Or possibly someone in law enforcement?.

Really, even being as hard of thinking as you appear to be, surely posting anonymously only moments after you use the word `Coward` in your title would ring alarm bells in even your tiny little mind, no?

I'm not going to rebuff your comments, as several others have already done this quite eloquently enough. Bottom line, it's not permanently depriving someone of a posession. It's not theft. It's copying. They are NOT the same thing, and if you can't work that out, maybe you should stick to just watching the shit they put on the telly which is designed to keep people of your ilk amused.

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Anonymous Coward

@Goat Jam

ISPs love P2P. Otherwise there would be no point to big fat internet pipes to the home and no extra revenue for even bigger pipes. What ISPs want is to both appear to be on the side of law and order whilst squeezing more money out of content providers and consumers.

@@@@@ all the copying is not the same as burglary. On one level it is not, but on another level it is.

When you copy something [in this context] you are obtaining something that you would otherwise have had to have paid for. Accordingly you are depriving the rights holder and all the normal chain or distribution etc. of an amount equal to what you would otherwise have paid. This is simple and straightforward. You may not have smashed their window and rummaged through their drawers but they are out of pocket.

The argument that when you copy something you are not depriving someone because you wouldn't have bought anyway is specious and frankly retarded on so many levels. If you want something that has an attached cost you either pay the cost or go without the item. Or accept that what you are doing is morally and legally wrong and other people are being hurt by your actions.

And no I am not an artist, I am not a shill for big record companies, or small ones and I have nothing to do with the filth either.

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@David Neil

OK I take your point but I'm more concerned at the potential undermining of security on the net for more important stuff (like managing ones bank account).

Dunno about you but I dont want to work in a world that I work for no reward whatsoever and they sure as hell aren't going to start giving gas, electric, food and clothing away for free and for this reason there will be scumbags that want to plunder your hard earned gains.

Think about this, at the moment, the only real way to get access to a system operated by a financial institution from the Internet side (code injections aside) is using the username and password which are gained by either a) the establishment of a fake site to harvest data or b) covert installation of a key logger, they have not...yet figured out a way to break the encryption stream and attack the system directly.

If encryption is used frivolously for applications such as this, more concerted efforts will be made by governments to break it and you can bet there will be some bent official only too willing to allow access to the computing facilities and or methods for cracking it in exchange for the right price, therefore all of us will then be at risk.

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Coat

Strays...

Why is it that every time a post, article, blog, or other dribble of varying forms, hits the internet, in a location that allows the general (read: uneducated) public to repsond, and is in any way, shape, or form, related to filesharing of any sort, the initial details get blurred, and obscured by a deluge of piracy/anti-piracy advocates starting the same too-many-years-old flame war?

The real concern here is not whether filesharing is "OK" or "Not OK", Legal or Illegal.. The issues are the laws in Sweden allowing the government there to monitor anything they like that you do online, and the responses to this law. Sure, it is TPB that is the frontrunner here, and yes, they may run a questionable service.. But the fundamental concerns of blanket snooping laws and the bigger concern that those laws allow anythign and everythign they "see" to be shared globally... THAT is what should be discussed.. I for one, and not all that thrilled to know that a country can blatantly disregard any rights of privacy I may have online...

But, what can we expect from a country who's most famous export is "Bork Bork Bork"

Eest deer bork dee bork.. Ees-a tiem fer mer tooo go..

Eerst der coat-en-hat... und der chickey-poo in der pocket...

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@ Charles

"hardened against DDoS using "bulletproofing" methods?"

Ha ha ha! No, stop, please don't make me laugh!

There is no "bulletproof" method to stop hackers from nailing any system out there.

If there was then all the IT Security companies in the world would have gone out of business. Think of the headlines by El Reg and others.

All Your Black Hats are Belong To Us, Pwned!!!!!!!!

Hardened against attacks means nothing to a hacker group determined to kick your system out of it's nice shiney ivory tower. Hardened only means it takes them longer or that they need a bigger botnet to do it is all.

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@ amanfromMars

“Oops...... spot the deliberate error ....”

Spotting a deliberate error in one of your posts is akin to spotting a deliberate in Finnegan's Wake!

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Boffin

Heads up! Black helicopters!

I don't know if you all realise the preternatural nature of the forces behind this parlimentary ruling. Sweden is a consensus society, traditionaly, rules and regulations are debated endlessly by untold commitees until consensus is reached. Here we have a law that breaks the Swedish constitution and the EU human right laws, that is proposed, rejected, amended and passed in the space of 2 days, in the face of massive public critisism. Remember this, in years to come you will be able tell your grandchildren you where alive when the first cracks in the dike appeared.

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@ pctechxp

"If encryption is used frivolously for applications such as this, more concerted efforts will be made by governments to break it and you can bet there will be some bent official only too willing to allow access to the computing facilities and or methods for cracking it in exchange for the right price, therefore all of us will then be at risk."

Two points - 1 the way this country is going if they really wanted to look at your bank account they would get the local council to have a look, and 2 - You seriously think that they will only have a go at looking at trafic cos your pilfering a few films? Phorm?

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Flame

Godwin's law

It seems to be related to Moore Law.

The length of a discussion before Nazi's are mentioned is halving every two years.

Once we reach critical mass then we will be in a Nazi police state.

Nazi

Nazi Nazi

Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi

Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi

Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi

Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi

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Stop

Stop;

Hammertime.

This is directed at the man who asked if anyone here has ever been burgled:

There is a distinction in law between copyright infringement and theft. Why is this, you ask?

Because there is a difference; this means that your comparison is ridiculous. Also, insert suggestion that not being able to separate between the two aforementioned concepts may be indicative of inferior intellect.

Also, nazis.

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Flame

@severalofyou

Copyright Acts have been introduced worldwide because the powers that be recognise that a breach of these acts is indeed a form of theft.

So the comparison with burglary may not have been the best choice of analogy but it certainly isn't ridiculous as some of you have suggested.

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Anonymous Coward

@pctechxp

"If encryption is used frivolously for applications such as this, more concerted efforts will be made by governments to break it and you can bet there will be some bent official only too willing to allow access to the computing facilities and or methods for cracking it in exchange for the right price, therefore all of us will then be at risk."

There're other encryption algorithms; the only reason AES is the standard is because it is the one that the NSA and NIST gave the thumbs up to. There are other secure systems, they're just not verified by the spooks and the pencil pushers (which admittedly does give me less confidence in them).

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