eBay is forcing all its Australian users to use its Paypal service from the middle of this year sparking outrage over the percentrage of their sales that will now flow back to the auctions giant. The auction giant's customers will have only two methods of payment available for transactions over the site from June 17: paying in …
Bunch of crooks. I had to take them through the FSA to get £2,500 that they had locked in my account.
They're now pretty much untouchable after their move to Luxemburg made the filing of small claim action impossible and they break UK data protection rules by holding onto your personal and financial details for ever even after the account is closed.
That said, if you want to use Ebay, you pretty much have to use Paypal.
Aussies are lucky!
"Paypal charges a fee of between 1.1 and 2.4 per cent on top of the auction price."..... In the UK for most sellers it is 3.4% plus 20p.
And there are already moves in the UK to make certain auction categories PayPal only.
Can anyone say monopoly?
I don't have too much issue with Ebay and Paypal itself (Apart from refunds not being paid back into my bank account and sitting there earning interest for Paypal if you don't move it yourself nor the fact that if you move house and forget your password you are stuffed). I've always had good service from both. But then again I only purchase small items. I do however take issue with the fact that both companies come under the same banner. Ideally they should be entirely disconnected from one another. Plus it's altogether fine to say go elsewhere if you are not happy. But where else offers the shear breadth of diverse products offered than on Ebay? Also having to sign up to an entirely new payment site all over again does not feel me with glee (It was difficult enough the first time and better the devil you know and all).
My coat because Ebay and Paypal have had plenty of money from it.
After referring to The Register style guide...
Don't you mean "Online tat merchants eBay"?
Is coming, perhaps at the end of April or May, if I understood a message that popped up when listing items recently.
I must admit I'm quite torn on it. eBay is useful, they should be able to make a profit, but I think this is abuse of a monopolistic position. They're already trying to "encourage' sellers towards including shipping, which of course nets fees on the shipping charge also.
I don't use ebay (UK) much but I put something on there a couple of weeks back only to find that I had to enable PayPal as an option because "of increasing problems with buyers being ripped off with this category of product" or something like that.
So I enabled it (I had to), but I made it very clear in the text of the advert that PayPal was only enabled to get the ad posted and that I would NOT accept it because of their totally unreasonable charges and odious T&Cs, so please don't bother trying to use it.
...and I still sold the item :-)
And this is one reason why....
I haven't used E-Bay for a loooong time. Once upon a time, I used to buy games 2nd hand from a local game store, complete them (or decide I didn't like them or get bored of them*), then sell them on E-Bay and get most of the price I had originally paid for them, sometimes a couple £ more, which was fine.
Smaller / lower-value items will be especially hit by this - a lot of sellers preferred being paid by cheque as it meant that they weren't paying PayPal fees on top of everything else, and that selling was more worthwhile than binning/taking to Oxfam/using local paper.
You can bet that this is a trial to expand internationally, and that by the end of 2010 latest, wherever in the world you're using E-Bay, then "for your safety and convenience" you'll have to use PayPal to do it. No thanks!
*yes yes, by "get bored of them", I do mean "get stuck". Happy now?
Never used it but maybe I will now:
Its a creeping canker. PenguinBay needed.,
Ebay has a monopoly on the internet auction sites.
Even selling cars it can compare with Autotrader for adverts.
Somebody find an alternative auction site that is struggling, but being fair, and lets all just use that one instead.
Lets face it, its us, the geeks and the nerds, that made Google & Ebay the successes they are.
Geeks of the world unite, create a linux-philosophy 'Ebay-competitor' with a community behind it and let Ebay shove it where the sun dont shine!
If they enforce that here, I won't be able to use eBay any more. Paypal have blocked my bank details and email address (which is worrying in itself - surely that means they have a permanent record of my bank details?).
The ironic thing is they blocked my account because I as a seller was scammed - the buyer paid using stolen credit card details, the bank did a chargeback, and Paypal assumed it was me who was the dodgy one. They not only left me £300 out of pocket and banned me from using them again, but let the buyer continue to scam several more people. This, despite me desperately trying to call or email a human being to warn them and explain what happened - but they don't concede to talk to mere mortals.
When I was still using said online tat merchant I merely noted that I expected to receive the full value of the auction (minus the tat's cut) after the costs of whatever payment method the buyer wanted to use were taken out. I should have just said if you use paypal I expect 3.4% + 20p over the auction price... This is exactly what I would do if I had to use said loathsome site again, either that or just note that there is a 3.4% discount if you pay by cash, cheque or money order. I really don't see why I should have to give up 3.4% of my item because the idiots can't be arsed to get a bank account.
On another note I have emailed "Consumer Direct" asking if ebay could legally require payment to only paypal since surely that would affect the right for a consumer to fulfil a contract with legal tender! I will post whatever response I get out of them.
Paris, because she even she would understand that this is blatent fraud!
This needs to happen
Facebook is *ripe* for someone writing an auction application. The sooner it happens the better.
For those of us that aren't in the big countries, Paypal is our only payment option. Like it or not, its the only service that works for international payments without the hassle of setting up a merchant account (and paying even MORE extortionate fees for credit card processing.) The nearest option I've seen was a Mexican service called "DineroMail", which was a blatant ripoff on Paypal... except they took out 8% for receiving payments there.
People don't realize that the "extortionate fees" of 1.1%-2.4% are basically the credit card processing fees; in fact these fees only apply for payments with credit cards. If you have a positive balance in your Paypal acct, they don't charge you any fees. Try to get your own CC processing system, and you'll find yourself paying a boatload just for the "privilege", plus initial 3.3%+ processing fees, as they only go down for those who have a high volume of sales.
That said, Paypal being part of Ebay isn't exactly good either, and forcing sellers to use only Paypal is bad PR for them.
PayPal *are* a law unto themselves
I lost £300 of wedding gift money through a hijacked ebay account, and paypal just sat there and said "buyer beware".
So that I did, and never used them again.
This is why I started my local auction sites...Because of Ebay's arrogance. I use Open Source, and don't charge anything to buy or sell.
Required from late April on ebay.co.uk
"Currently, PayPal is offered on about 95% of listings on eBay.co.uk. Starting in late April 2008, we will require all sellers on eBay.co.uk to offer PayPal on their listings."
...and now I'm off to close my account.
Paypal is rubbish
Paid £200 for a top of the range graphics card which never arrived (a few years ago), PayPal got me 1/100 of it back and told me that was case closed.
They can both go inhale ricin for all I care.
E Bay and Paypal
Its no longer worth using e-bay to sell smaller/cheap items
10p-50p insertion fee
15p for a gallery
7.5% of final price to e-bay
then paypals 3%
so on a £5 item you pay:
Almost 20% disappearing to them. I don't know how anyone could sell items for 99p, its just not worth the effort in listing them
To add to that, the fuckers at paypal even took that 3% from a refund I was given. Its impossible to talk to anyone there too, and if ever someone does bother replying its just a "fuck you" letter/response.
dumb question time
how can they actually stop people doing bank transfers?
Amazon is your friend...
I've taken to using Amazon marketplace for both buying and selling. Less hassle with creating item listings; less likely to get the wrong item because someone used the helpful eBay supplied listing without checking that their printing/edition of something actually matched; shipping calculation is included; no custom payment scheme/requirement for a bank account to link.
I think if anyone is going to challenge eBay successfully it would be them.
I still use paypal, but mainly just to make purchases from online retailers without giving them my debit/credit card info and to send money to relatives overseas without the hassle of getting a bank draft and the conversion/handling fees that come with that. EBay is still good when I want to find something rare, but it takes time; common stuff I go to amazon marketplace and just buy it.
It's interesting to note that with ebay UK about to make it compulsory to offer paypal on all auctions, and talking about making it policy that if a buyer wants to pay with paypal, you have to accept it no matter what, they're not changing the rules that mean paypal will always find in favour of the buyer and refund if no online trackable postage is provided. Even if the buyer has collected the item in person before claiming non-delivery and you provide paypal with signed receipts and photos...
According to ebay, buyers don't commit fraud.
Ebay, meanwhile, notch up a percentage of the value as a fee, plus another percentage as a paypal transaction...
Amazon.........anyone used Google Base?
Just tried sticking a couple of bits on there, They're on , but god knows where!
are also tying to stop people paying by credit card. Even if your primary payment method is a credit card once you are verified paypal automatically attempt to take any payment from your bank account thus removing the protection using a credit card gives you.
Also if you have funds in your paypal account it automatically uses these before any other form of payment and if the funds you have are more than the item costs it stops you from using any other payment method, debit or credit card again I can only assume to remove the protection a credit card gives you.
They can't stop you from using whatever methods you like but it's at your own risk and you can't advertise it within your auction. The "downside" is that if you do a bank transfer to me and I decide to not bother sending you anything, you're screwed. Ebay won't help because as far as they're concerned, you've never paid and your bank won't be able to do anything as transfers are not reversable unless you're prepared to lie to the bank and probably the police and say that it was unauthorised.
Paypal doesn't offer MUCH protection but at least it offers some. Bank transfer offers nothing and what're you going to do if I cash your cheque or postal order and send you an empty box ? Only option is to come to my house and take back your money personally....but of course you could call while all my doorman friends have come round for a beer or as I'm about to take the rotweillers for a walk so it's a bit of a risky business.
Paris ? Because both she and Ebay offer and excellent way of blowing your wad.....I'll get my coat now
Yeah Yeah Yeah....
Every few weeks there's a story about some change to ebay and we hear loads of people chelping that they will never use ebay again and that ebay will go titsup as a result. Well ebay's user base doesn't get any smaller and their profits don't seem to suffer.
I for one have insisted on Paypal or cash for at least a couple of years. I don't object to Paypal/Ebay taking a percentage (and no it's not "on top of the auction price" as you say, it's taken out of the auction price) for the convenience. If buyers object then they don't bid. I still sell plenty of stuff, it's the people who don't accept Paypal who seem to achieve lower prices. Buyers like Paypal, it costs them nothing, it's convenient and it offers some sort of protection - whether it delivers on those promises is another matter. The end result is that sellers who insist on other methods of payment achieve lower prices for the same goods. If they leave I don't think ebay or the buyers will miss them.
@ Andy...there are some MASSIVE problems in writing applications for profit on Facebook at this moment in time.
There have been auction programs on Facebook, but the enviroment is based on VIRAL marketing pretty much exclusively.
Paypal are angels when compared with credit card companies...
Just a thought, but I actually like Paypal. Sure ebay make money, but so what? I'd rather buy from an online store using Paypal because it's much more secure than using a credit card. I've suffered from credit card fraud before and it's all because vendors won't use more secure services like "verified by visa" because they cost more than the old fashioned method. And the credit card companies won't impose these more secure services on vendors. Paypal is pretty secure by comparison to traditional credit card payments because your password never goes near the vendors servers. Paypal is also, by and large, cheaper for vendors to use than credit cards.
To my Aussie friends
I raise my beer in toast and apologize in advance for the thorough fucking ye are about to receive.
@Amazon is your friend...
...Until you try to buy and they don't want to ship to you because you're in Malaysia and Amazon Marketplace doesn't allow the stuff to ship to Malaysia for some unspecified reason but allows the stuff to ship to neighboring Singapore...
Customer IS King
Have a feeling this may fall foul of Unfair terms in contracts law or similar. In the end how can ebay prevent us paying for stuff in whatever way we mutually agree with the other party?
Ebay & pay pals' dispute procedures are a bad joke anyway. Is this the next US behemoth to fall foul of the EU? Ebay needs a slap to remind it that "customer is king", without us it has no business.
Protection isnt high on Ebays priority.
Making the maximim of profit is.
Otherwise, features like " do not allow users to bid if they are registered in a country I dont ship to", would be recommended defaults for basic users.
Also, I havent found a way to blacklist a user from bidding/buying by account. ( ie restricting someone thats scammed you before to not bid on new items listed )
Ebay are struggling to get round the people that are 'playing' the rules and getting away with murder. In the process of this, they are narrowing the accepted field.
As with everything in life, the safer something becomes, the less fun it is!
Compulsory paypal coming to UK late April!
I got an email from paypal pimping their paypal offers promo.
I noticed this interesting paragraph in the email...
"Buying and selling on eBay made even safer
Starting in late April, eBay will now ask all sellers to offer PayPal on their listings. This means that even more items on eBay will offer buyer protection.
This is one of many new initiatives that eBay and PayPal are doing to make it much more difficult for bad sellers to operate on eBay. As a result, you'll notice a dramatic improvement in quality when buying on eBay. "
You get stung for listing and completing an auction, and then paypal fees on the whole lot. It takes a big dent out of any profits on a sale. Before long everyone will have to have a premier paypal account!
Re: Customer IS King
"In the end how can ebay prevent us paying for stuff in whatever way we mutually agree with the other party"
By cancelling your account forthwith because you have breached their T&Cs. And you'll have no recourse for action.
I'm calling the ACCC
I too have been ripped off - I didn't escalate my complaint within their time limit because I was sick on that day - I even offered to fax PayPal a copy of the medical certificate, but they basically said 'sucked in', and wouldn't even discuss it further. I wish I'd read the horror stories on http://paypalsucks.com/ before I ever got a paypal account - so now I refuse to use PayPal ever again under any circumstances. This effectively means that if ebay do go ahead with this, there will be no way for me to use ebay. which, in the long run, could be a good thing for me - I spend a fair bit of money quite frivolously on ebay every year.
Happily, it's been my experience that the ACCC is pretty good about this kind of stuff, and surely this will violate some fair trading law - they're creating a monopoly for themselves. I'll be calling the ACCC to lodge a complaint about this. I'd advise any other aussies reading this to do the same.
Interestingly given the status of Oz Corporate Laws a few complaints about this wowserism and self wanking stupidity to the ACCC will see a bunch of very ferocious attack legal wolves with extremely razor sharp teeth and a take no prisoners attitude kicking in all windows and doors at ebay Oz HQ and blowing their house down in a very short order !
As once these beasts are unleashed , not even being a very good friend of Little Johnny who has been quickly forgotten as past history of a has been hack political leader who can't win elections of the "you can't lose variety" , had the power to pull the chains of these ferocious attack legal pack wolves back once they bite onto their prey and refuse to let go !
A classic example link= http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/confessions-of-a-billionaire/2007/10/08/1191695823640.html
COD doesn't need to be in person
A minor detail, but COD doesn't necessarily mean you have you have to pay when you go to pick it up.
Australia post offers a COD service where you post something and the recipient has to go to the post office and pay to collect it. The sender then goes to the post office and collects the cash.
Buyers and sellers, read the contract with PayPal before you sign up
Why would anyone with common sense surrender a bank account to PayPal? It really does not matter whether it is a buyer's or seller's account. Need examples, more details?
and the beat[ing] goes on ...
Unless/ until sales transaction/ dollar value plummets enough for eBay stockholders to notice (check here -- http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=ebay -- for current ticker), there is no incentive for them to change their ways. With unemployment up, I imagine eBay is looking like a viable option to more folks, PayPal required or not.
Unbalanced - overly favours buyers
The fees do not worry me too much. They are just milking their cash cow, and the market can react accordingly. However, the move to compulsory PayPal is troubling. Like the removal of feedback on buyers, this is obviously all part of their plan to lure more people to buy stuff on eBay.
When all these measure are taken in their entirety, it has gone altogether too far. It all assumes that *only* sellers can be scammers. This position is totally unbalanced.
There are horror stories on some photography forums of people eBaying cameras or lenses worth several thousands of $ and receiving payment by PayPal. Then, after the goods are delivered, the buyer either complains to eBay/PayPal or reverses the payment via their credit card issuer (either one will do). The seller is loses the money, loses the valuable equipment and to add the final insult, is automatically branded a scammer.
Personally, I will sell stuff until the enforced use of PayPal in May in Australia. After that, I may consider buying stuff, but I will never sell anything again through eBay. Eventually, if enough sellers follow suit, there will be nothing to buy. Way to go, eBay.
All the big sellers and buyers are going...
They're all saying they're going over to "OzTion" (www.oztion.com.au).
I haven't made a move to sign up there yet, or really had a good look at it... But it's been mentioned in hundreds of comments on the ebay forums (they refer to it as "the o site", "oz", etc).
And if it's where the sellers are going, it's where the buyers should follow.
On the other hand... With all the international negative publicity, perhaps eBay will back down and shut up.
I've already had an email from eBay UK which suggests that they are very much planning to implment this in the UK too. As it happens, I don't sell stuff on eBay but I know plenty who do and they're not happy at all.
eBay - carry this out at your own risk because you are going to piss off a lot of punters.
This is extortion, plain and simple.
It also prejudices the anonymity of buyers and sellers, because eBay get to know whether or not money changed hands, and if so how much -- and they have access to both parties' bank account details.
I always pay for goods bought from eBay using Postal Orders, made out to CASH in an envelope with no return address, because this puts a break in the audit trail -- the PO can only ever be traced back as far as the post office where it was sold. Which, since they closed all the ones in villages, is bound to be a crowded one in a town and nobody is going to remember who came in on that day.
Next you know, eBay will set up -- or buy -- a delivery company and insist that you use them, not the Post Office or any other courier!
Google Checkout, NoChex etc etc.
Both of the above fall into the same category as PayPal, so why aren't they allowed?
Am I the only one who suspects that the allegedly lower fraud rate by PayPal users is down to the fact that PayPal refuses to admit that fraud ever occurs?
I wonder if someone smarter than I could perhaps write an online auction site aggregator that worked in a manner similar to YouTorrent. That way, rather than lots of little sites each trying to compete with eBay, there could be one big site (aggregator) that listed the items from all the little sites in one place.
I mainly go to eBay because I know it's where I'll find the bits I need (old laptops, RAM, etc) but when it comes to torrents, I try the aggregators first.
I'd do it myself but I don't know much more than basic HTML.
Australians are renowned for there "Fair Go" ethics, which this eBay decision seems to fly in the face of. Let's hope eBay get a big booting for it, and the EU takes note and shreds them.
They really can make things secure, but they choose to only consider things that will make them more money.
I think eBay should be forced to integrate the google and amazon payments system into its site as well as paypal is. In exchange you could force amazon and google to implement paypal. In fact i should be able to move money through all of these systems as if they were one like i can with a bank.
Where's the competition commission when you need it?
Ebay Live Help told me ......
Ebay Live Help told me .... that they are not simply removing the bank deposit option from checkout, they are actually forbidding listings from mentioning bank deposits.
So I asked them how much time they were going to give me to manually edit my 1500 listings, and they said not to worry, they are going to provide a bulk editing tool of some kind.
eBay PayPal - join the petitions
We Aussies are really going to give eBay a run for their money cause they are not getting anymore of ours.
Already 3181 signed on - www.petitiononline.com - as we know they cant pull that
one. You guys should start your own about eBay UK.
Issue is going to be aired nationally on our A Current Affair TV program tonight.
This Paypal saga combined with the new Feedback system is just the last straw. I have written to our ACCC and signed up to alternative site and about to start my listings.
Also sent ACCC copy of these web addresses to look at as this is identical to what is happening all around the world. What other company would we give all our personal details to and allow them to dip into your bank account if and when they feel like it without even discussing the issues with you. Non that I can think of.
We will only win if we are very vocal and fight with our feet.
May 1st Ebay Boycott
It's time for Australia, U.S.A, Germany and the U.K. to join together and let our voices be heard by Ebay. May 1st and beyond!
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