Is it just me
Or is there something wrong here, hypocritical, even?
Makes me think of 'vegetarian sausages' - why would a vegetarian want a simulated meat sausage?
A Oregon man who was born a woman claims to be preparing to give birth in July. Thomas Beatie, of Bend, Oregon, underwent sex change surgery to become a man 10 years ago, but chose to retain his female reproductive organs, just in case. His wife of ten years, Nancy also from Bend, was unable to have children due to a …
Or is there something wrong here, hypocritical, even?
Makes me think of 'vegetarian sausages' - why would a vegetarian want a simulated meat sausage?
This isn't the same Oregon man who was stripped by Craigslist looters, I take it?
I think I'll settle with " who's your daddy?".
I really really dislike having a very visual imagination!
Steve Jobs? Well some on, it's a bald head that looks like it's about to enter or exit a hole!
Yea, the kind of family that CBS does a 7 part mini-series on. God that child is going to have such a hard life.
It's a woman giving birth, not a man.
and quacks like a duck...then it's a duck!
As title :)
Seriously, aside from the pronouns and the religious nutjobs, where's the problem with a woman who transgendered to a man to carry and give birth to a child? I'd call it good foresight that he kept his womb.
Granted if I was a doctor and this pair walked into my office I'd blink a few times and ask a lot of curious questions. But thats because I'm bloody curious.
Where's the IT angle though? :p
According to society - man, according to nature - woman.
Not really as big a story as the media are making it out to be, though in fairness to ElReg at least they mentioned the word "Transgender" in the headline, as opposed to "Nostradamus rolls in his grave! Man is pregnant! World gone mad!".
"g e" hit the nail on the head for me - I find it very peculiar that a woman living as a man would seek to bear a child?
Wow - a hint of compassion and open-mindedness. I'm going to have to go and have a little lie down.
So gender is a state of mind and biology is not relevant?
Just where would one draw the line and say, "beyond this point, there is nothing wrong with your body, it's your mind that needs help?"
"why would a vegetarian want a simulated meat sausage?"
A interesting philosophical question...but how do you know that the transgender subject of the article is a vegetarian?
Couples like this are very selfish in their desire to have kids, they don't think about what it will be like for a young child growing up with a transexual parent..
Kids can be very cruel, and as soon as other schoolkids get wind of the situation, this child is in for a very unpleasant schooling.
I'm, like, 50 miles off-topic here but here goes: the sausage is a convenient form. Fits nicely into hot dog buns, easy to slice to add meaty chunks to pasta dishes, can be sliced in half for sandwiches, and so on.
Plus, most vegetarians aren't objecting to the taste of meat, it's the inherent death that they're averse to.
Surely there's a great big c**k at the exit port.
The fact of the matter is though, Kids will be cruel no matter what, if its not Transgender parents it'll be something else. Either he'll be at the top of the pile and bullying the other kids, or he'll be at the bottom of the pile and being bullied by other kids. Law of the Jungle I'm afraid.
Kids are bitches, but they grow up eventually.
How did the wife produce sperm??? I'm presuming she's a true XX.
Who is Eric Cartman's father?
Basically she didnt want to become a man and get her bits cut out 10 years ago and opted for the meat and 2 plastic ball options "Just incase she needed the female bits again in the future"
I mean how the hell can she be legally classified as a bloke? Was the doctor blind or just stupid. If you want the deciding factor in this argument......She is having a baby.....so she is NOT a bloke/ever was a bloke and never will be.
Sounds like someone was trying to make a story out of nothing.
Given that a lot of the family don't know, why would the child?
"Couples like this are very selfish in their desire to have kids, they don't think about what it will be like for a young child growing up with a transexual parent.."
If everyone followed this then people wouldn't have girls in case they experience sexism, Asians wouldn't have kids in case they experience racism etc etc. You can't say someone isn't entitled to a child because they might get bullied. It doesn't make sense.
If all our parents "thought about the child suffering" hardly anyone of us would have been born.
@mark_t : please study transgenderism a little, examinate more deeply what gender dysphoria is, and come back with a brain. thanks.
and for all the "heterosexual couple is teh norm" over here. we don't speak of 'mother' and 'father' but of 'feminine referent' and 'male referent'. a woman can be a male referent, that has never been proved a problem.
aside from that, if this kind of event were to be more common place, perhaps we could push more openmindness in the usual normative nutjobs (be them religious or whatever else). kind of a good non-news :)
haven't any of you guys dreamt to give birth ? pregnancy would even give them a look at how bitchy they can be when doubling volume :)
I read the headline (also heard it on the radio) "man pregnant...etc"
Just because (s)he is legally a man they were not born so and still obviously have all the organs to become pregnant (as (s)he has) So infact its not a man about to give birth its a woman who had a semi-sex change who is about to give birth. Who cares.
Apart from the fact that that child is going to have the hardest life ever.
...that this gal comes from *Bend*? Seriously. It doesn't get any better.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got to head into Asshole to get some groceries.
You know, every time something like this happens, I cringe inside. Not so much for the people involved (though I don't envy the kid), but every time we get the spotlight on the trans community the jerks come out of the woodwork. It's gonna be all "d00d, he's a she!" and "look between your legs" and on and on and on. I don't even wanna think about what my raving "family values" neighbors (I live in the Ozarks, if you call that living) are going to say. Feces, meet fan. *sigh*
Look, ok: all I'm gonna say is A) your body is the box ya came in, your mind is who you _are_. Took me a while to grok that, but tis true. And B) While I wish the couple in question all the luck in the world, I'm kinda wondering if they sat down and thought out all the consequences of this whole thing, not only for the kid's sake, but for the rest of the community. I mean, when some white guy goes off and does something stupid, people don't go, "Oh, white guys do this stupid thing," but if a transsexual does something outrageous and the general public gets wind of it, it's all "look what transsexuals do!" (grrr...)
Oh. And C) For some reason, there's a whole lot of us who are in the computer industry for some reason. Danged if I know why.
There. IT angle. Y'welcome.
"Here's to fewer dropped balls"
in the Visual Studio ad that was running in the article?
"Fits nicely into hot dog buns, easy to slice to add meaty chunks to pasta dishes"
Or you could just add meat.
It could get a tad complicated tho couldn't it?
Right or wrong, in custody cases the law favours the mother unless the father can show a reason why she shouldn't have custody. Given the rate of marriage breakdowns in this day and age it would be interesting to see which way the judiciary would go in a case like this (what with the "mother" having no genetic link with the child)
It also causes complications with maternity leave, as the person giving birth is the father. Any American employment law experts here to clarify that one for us?
Well, it'll be interesting I'm sure...
PS "Thomas Beatie, of Bend, Oregon, underwent sex change surgery". Come on, really? Bend?
Each to their own. OK the child may well have a difficult time of it. It will either be a character building or a soul destroying school experience. Perhaps parents should program their kids to be understanding and open minded instead of instilling them with bigotry. If this kid does get a hard time at school I can see where the problem lies. And it is not with the child of a transgendered parent. I just hope the child has the presence of mind to realise this and the strength of character do deal with it.
There's someone missing from this story - the biofather - the 'real' daddy.
I never met my biofather and the biggest problem I has when I was growing up was prejudice in others - not the fact that my 'real' daddy was not around or that I came from a single parent family.
All that really matters is that the kid is brought up in a loving environment. Some kids don't even have that.
Read, man, READ the bloody story BEFORE you shove your foot into your mouth.
JEEZUS, dude; the story CLEARLY states the transgender individual KEPT HIS FEMALE PARTS INTACT.
I'm with Sarah Bee; it's good to see some compassion and open-mindedness in ElReg's readership for a change!
Joe, kids are only cruel because they have picked up cruelty from other people, I hope you aren't teaching your kids cruelty!!
...and get an agent with Channel 4 on speed-dial, they're always in need of new shock doc docs.
....and that is the opening line of the story: "A Oregon man who was born a woman..."
I always thought that when you are born you are either male/female or hermaphrodite. At that age you can not think like a man or like a women, you are what your are (is what ya is etc).
Am I barking up the wrong tree, or is my preconception right?
Coat for the preconception line ;)
Whether or not the kid will have a tough childhood depends on the community. I'm in Albany (Berkeley's garbage dump -- literally! Look it up! Our women-folk got fed up in 1908, grabbed a bunch of guns, and chased off those rotten Berkelians who were dumping their trash on us). But back to the point, I live in a very liberal area. My son has one classmate with two moms, and two classmates with two dads. None of the kids think anything of it; it's perfectly normal to them. No teasing or bullying has occurred because no one around here treats it as abnormal.
But admittedly, being close to Berkeley is abnormal in and of itself...
(The alien, because anything from anywhere near Berkeley is decidedly alien).
Now, fuck off.
All this 'think of the children' stuff is seriously misplaced. It's a man and a woman and a child. As long as no nosy busy body digs out the fact that the _father_ gave birth, the child will be absolutely fine.
As to the 'biology' idiots - the concept of mixed sexual identifiers is hardly new within both the body and/or the mind.
not that it's any of my business but to my mind :) if you can't diagnose it physically (and there’s no chance of ever being able to then it's psychological.
anyway, clever man/woman for keeping a set of spares around, just in case.
Kids aren't cruel, they're just brutally honest. ;)
Thanks for your Pro-choice, received wisdom, liberalism-or-death advice John.
Here's one for you to ponder...
If you actually are morally and technically superior, examine yourself and realise that your mind is the most closed here...
Your training and experience tells you that you are totally right and no-one else could ever be.
I only asked 2 questions. For which crime you condemned me. If you are the voice of correctness then I thank goodness for my brutal ignorance.
You may also notice that I have no wish to shut you up or belittle you.
This is the sort of muddle that occurs when for PC reasons society denies reality and supports the fantasy. Having an operation to mimic the opposite sex clearly does not make you the opposite sex, as this story shows. If the op makes you feel better and you don't try to deceive a partner, then fine, go live your own life. That's your affair. But this is not a case of a pregnant man, it is a case of a pregnant woman who prefers to live life as a man (usually) to the extent that they have opted to undergo surgery.
Then there's no winning this argument.
If you define gender by genetics = Female
By genitalia present = Female
By mind = Male
By law = Male
A kid of two lesbians or two gay men willl have much bigger problems, as the 'difference' is much more obvious to the other kids. So will the only black or the only asian kid in the school. And remember that the US West coast is pretty tolerant of non-traditional gender definitions like homosexuality and transsexualism. Land of fruits and nuts, if you haven't heard the joke (I grew up in Calif.)...
I hope all goes well for everyone.
But I am quite curious whether the father will breastfeed in public.. :-)
Kids aren't brutally honest; they're just taught brutality by adults.
Just thinking of the mechanics.
PH, 'cause she'd try anything once...
Some kids seem to have cruelty inherent in them, a sort of excessive selfishness that has no concept of what they do to others. Many other kids learn from their peers what sort of behaviour produces benefits, and what sort makes them part of the group. Adults have little influence except that if they don't make an effort to teach right from wrong, then the child has little reason to change.
Technically it's possible for XY men to carry babies (through an ectopic pregnancy) - it's just incredibly inadvisable.
My suspicion is that the father's gender identity is considerably more complicated than just being 'a man', and that this is simplified for everyone except partners and close friends/relations. Otherwise, if you're going to throw such strongly gendered terms around, you shouldn't be considering something that acts directly against them.
I worry less about the baby, than about the father. Hormones aren't taken for trivial reasons, and if the father hadn't already been considering the effects of coming off them before a baby was considered, there may be a mental impact on resetting to a more female body.
Fair enough comment, Mark,,,,,
Hope this helps....
There is a blanket phrase used widely in the transgender community - Gender Dysphoria. Literally a degree of discomfort with the physical gender one was born with. There is debate regarding whether this should be considered to be a medical condition with its roots in an individual's psychology or simply a natural expression of gender variance, where gender is considered a spectrum rather than being polarised between the two absolutes of Male and Female. Personally I'm agnostic on that one.
However, there is some evidence to suggest that Gender Dysphoria has a physical causation. Limited research suggests that male to female transexuals may have a brain topography that is more typical of the female brain than the male. Other research relating to hormone levels of pregnant women suggests that with certain hormonal imbalances they will give birth to children who are transgendered......
The degree of Gender Dysphoria may vary, giving rise not only to male and female transexuals but also to people such as myself who are capable of functioning within the role our birth gender dictates but who who also need to present at least part of the time in the opposite gender role. Aka 'Transvestites'. (I now await the inevitable 'Little Britain' jibes with fortitude).
Having (I hope) answered that one, I must say that I was heartened to see a decent proportion of comments here that are reasonably supportive. Thank you.
One comment regarding the Daily Mail (loved the comment, AC - PMSL)
Their website recently published a story relating to a mixed bunch of transvestites and transexual women being refused service at a pizza restaurant. The comments thread was of course full of comments like 'deviants', 'family values' etc. I posted a polite and reasoned response from the transgendered persons point of view. It was rejected without explaination by the moderator. It seems that Freedom of Speech sometimes means freedom to say what decent, clean living folk say......
Oh, and yes - the IT industry is stacked full of people like me........