French motorwonk savages hybrid cars

Hmmmmmm......

I'm sure the fact that the current leaders in the US hybrid market are the Japanese manufacturers, not the Fwenchies, had nothing to do with this.

Buy me a pint Lewis and let me do the thinking

Very entertaining fluff. However, the article is about marketing not science and how the word Hybrid is such a popular selling point that it makes people feel good about buying a car even if it still has hideously mileage. It's nothing to do with whether it's a useful technology or a Prius is a good thing. Possibly the same principle could be applied to the use of nanny state-ism in internet magazines discussing climate science.

Just for interest, some conservative real life mileage figures here if anyone is interested (http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage).

Skull and crossbones for using a dead detectives words in vain.

So Citreon and Peugot Don't Do Hybrids?

Even the French are entitled to their opinion. It would be nice to see some logic - and maybe some evidence - to support their assertions, but you can't have everything.

It won't stop the development of hydrogen fuel cells, as there is a misinformed craze for hydrogen vehicles especially in countries that don't do hybrids.

Of course it's a temporary step -but as all 'pure green' energy-saving vehicles have thus far been a joke, we need SOMETHING to lower carbon output until science catches up.

Back the lab guys, and stop whining!

Does not surprise me in the slightest

People do not buy hybrids for their mileage or green credentials. They buy them to get around Red-Green Ken's congestion charge or for the green-cred they bring.

After all, the old Honda Civic Hybrid which probably had the best mileage out of all "green" vehicles sold least. Guess why - according to Honda itself it did not "Look Green" enough. It looked like a normal car and drove better than many normal cars so it did not have the appeal to all the people desperate to show how green they are while they continue wasting enormous amounts of resources.

By the way, once you put normal tires on the Prius so you can take UK corners and roundabouts at normal speed without killing yourself your mileage hits rock bottom straight away.

As far as the mileage table is concerned looking at it nearly every French Diesel vehicle can beat the best Hybrids so frankly the French definitely have a point here.

Don't forget

The energy input required to make the batteries and dispose of them at end of life. Lots of people forget about those things and seem to think they just appear.

I haven't seen a study the looks at the making of a standard car and a hybrid over say a 15 - 20 year life cycle, and the energy and pollution requirements in those cases.

The claims of the hybrid makers could well be fluff as well.

Thumbs down, they should have tried harder

It's about time...

... people started pointing at the naked-emperor that is hybrid car technology.

As a Prius driver ...

I have to agree with all the knocking copy about the car. Every driver of a French diesel car I have spoken to (OK, all half dozen of them) gets a better mpg than I get out of my Prius. Recently it had a recall (concern about a possible lack of integrity of the cells in the HT/traction battery). The recall should have been a one day job, but the agent I use for service does not have the necessary specialist staff, so it was sent away to one of their other branches, and became an overnight job. Then they discovered that the "engine computer" wasn't talking properly to the "battery computer" and kept it for another two weeks. Since I've had it back, the mpg has been going dramatically and steadily south on the graph I keep.

No they will not get a repeat sale to me. Even Mondeos do better on the mpg stakes than this thing does at present!

You might recall the Mini QED produced a short while ago by electric motor manufacturers PML FlightLink Ltd. In a recent exchange of emails they said that "We hope that either the Volvo recharge project or the Lightning cars

roadster will be the first car manufacturers to use our motors as demonstrated in the Mini." And they hope to be in production within the year.

There is one advantage

The dumb billions who own cars can get used to semi-electric cars more easily than switching 'cold-turkey' to all-electric. This leads to an increase in car-grade electric motors and possibly to better batteries. As more hybrids come out, more and more people will demand plug-in hybrids to increase their range without using petrol.

Hopefully, as there are more plug-in hybrids, parking garages, apartment complexes and work parking lots (and maybe park-and-ride lots?) will get plugs so you can charge your plug-in hybrid there, too.

Once that happens, we could switch to all-electrics...

(I have always doubted the validity of hybrids, though. I have a friend who drives a [petrol] Toyota Echo and it gets the same in-town milage as the Prius, and much better highway milage.)

Windmills of my mind

"personally the sooner we have windmills on top of the damn things the better"

Or propellers - a windmill on the front, and a propeller on the back! Perhaps someone could revive those old Messerschmitt cars, with windmill/propeller drive. They're streamlined, small, easy to get out of in an emergency.

If only there was a way to harness the power of wind. I choose Paris Hilton as my avatar because she would benefit from having a windmill on top of her head.

People you are not trying are you?

Hybrids -6

Hydrogen -5

Horse and cart +10

simple is it not?

Ivenough

"As far as the mileage table is concerned looking at it nearly every French Diesel vehicle can beat the best Hybrids so frankly the French definitely have a point here."

Not true as soon as you get off the motorway. Hybrids are an elegant short term solution. The next stage is to a) fit them with plug-in recharging options and b) fit them with Lithium Ion batteries which are both lighter and have greater energy density c) swap the petrol engine for a Diesel.

@gollux

For those that choose to buy and drive the behemoths for reasons other than regular hauling of people and/or goods the only status gained by driving them is the status that the driver is both selfish and delusional of the problems facing the world and at the same time flush with disposable income to pay for the fill-ups.

This is not a status that I would want.

"Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage"

http://clubs.ccsu.edu/Recorder/editorial/print_item.asp?NewsID=188

Air car has potential

From what I have seen the air car has potential as a city driving vehicle which is what most people use their car for anyway

I don't know anything about the corresponding production footprint so there may be an issue there.

The only concern I have is that while people still choose to drive around in war wagons then safety is still to much of an issue.

Dead vulture as compressed air would obviously be cold not hot

@gollux

Maybe not in a lot of states; but I've witnessed a practice prevalent in Nevada whereby shoppers park up in the local Wallmart or precinct and leave the engine running whilst they go for a good old shop/hoof manicure. The only reason being - it keeps the aircon running for their return. Presumably it helps to keep their choc ices cold for the journey home.

Hydrogen fuel cells are the wrong way to go, people.

1) http://www.enterstageright.com/archive/articles/0203/0203hydrogen.htm

2) http://www.dalefield.com/slspartners/hydrogen_fm.html

There are more websites out there that explain all this, but just go read those two to start with. Hydrogen is an energy *carrier*, not an energy *source*. There are energy losses all along the way of getting hydrogen out of water and getting it into a vehicle; there are more losses in using that hydrogen in that vehicle.

It is much wiser to generate the electricity from wind and solar and use a pure electric vehicle to start with. Hybrids are just a good step towards that.

Uh, Pieter?

If you do a search for (without the quotes) "prius hummer damage" you find lots of links - all pointing to various postings of that ONE article. ONE article that has ZERO factual links to back up its claims.

Nice try at continuing a myth.

Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage - unproven!

I'm no Prius fanboy but that "Dust to dust" paper Pieter L links has been pretty well discredited, not least of the problems is that the lower cost/impact of the Hummer is based on it having a most unlikely life of 300,000 miles. Note that this was a Hummer H3, which is a tarted up little SUV built on GM's cheap/small pickup truck chassis, not the brawny real Hummer.

@ Pieter L

Seriously? An article from a school newspaper written by someone who can't even get their facts right about the Sudbury nickel plants?

Italian

I reckon my Piaggio gets better milage - about 3l/100k at the moment.

And hydrogen fuel is a joke, greenhouse-wise. It just moves the combustion from a few metres from the wheels to a power station 100s of ks away, with transmission losses etc etc.

Nuclear Fusion is humanity's only hope. Without it, this current time will be the never-to-be-repeated golden age. In a couple of centuries, anything made of plastic will be a priceless antique.

Wimps can't peddle

We all know that the Prius is worse on the environment than a Hummer and fancy all-electrics are faster than gassers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qDZOBQs60w

Those kinds of topics are really not very relevant to any discussion about carbon usage. We should be discussing why people are so stubborn or lazy as to need a passenger car in the first place. Are these people all old, sick, or disabled? If not, then a passenger car is just a toy. How come the average car owner doesn't have the guts to peddle their own ass to work? That is the real question.

I still like the idea of ethanol fuelled cars

I still like the idea of ethanol fuelled cars. You can convert most petrol engines to run on alcohol fairly simply and while they do generate CO2 it's the same CO2 that was absorbed when the source crop was grown, not stuff that has spent the last million years trapped under the ground

@ gollux and others

How nice that I do not have to decide for myself what I need or want - so many are glad to do that for me. Now I can just lay down and sleep while gollux and the other BRANES will solve all my problems. [Capitalized to keep it separate from the Brane theory of the universe.]

This is the perfect solution for everything. See how well it worked in Hitler's Germany and Stalin's Soviet Union and now in giving all that prosperity to the North Korean's and the Cuban's? Let the state bureaucrats solve all the problems.

Just for the record, what I need and what I want are my concern and you can just keep your damned hands off. The Cult of AGW is very similar to the National Socialist Democratic Workers Party and the thugs that ran that party. The King Ranch in Texas is roughly 200,00 acres (call it 80,000 hectares) and you don't get around it with a bicycle - you need a pickup. If someone needs a large pickup truck to haul a 40-foot cattle trailer, it will frequently also be the family car because the budget only allows one vehicle. Haul cattle one day and groceries the next. Or maybe we could tell the people on the Stations in Australia that they can keep their motorcycles and bicycles but the multi-trailer land trains won't be around anymore. In other words, solutions that properly serve the metropolitan areas are usually a disaster for the suburban and rural areas.

Show me the science behind the hockey-stick curve (the creation of a computer program) and show how all the real data from the Maunder Minimum, Malenkovich Cycles, Greenland ice core sample analysis, etc., etc., have been taken into account and maybe I will be convinced that IPCCC report is something more than a piece of fiction designed to enhance control of humanity by a few malicious individuals. Not likely but it could happen.

@ Quiz Time

Oh dear, if you are going to make jokes then at least get them right...

Citron - means Lemon in French

Citeron - is not a word in any language

Citroen - is a brand name of a French car manufacturer, I'm not saying they're NOT lemons, but you might want to check your French grammar before poking fun!

old(ish) but still relevant

http://cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy/

Mine gets the best mileage

Ooops, maybe not but then it is a 4 litre V8 TVR - who gives a shit about the environment - it is fun to drive.

Skull and crossbones - cos I apparently am a planet killer. Luv it....

Lazy humans

I second what Ole says - too many of us westerners seem to think we have a right to be lazy and not use our built in power systems. Some of us live in places which are too cold and refuse to put on more clothes, or places which are too hot for our liking so we burn fuel to cool them down.

Maybe if we could use the resources around us better - like using daylight for work and play rather than electric light - we humans might stand a chance.

Sadly too many choices are made based on laziness and short sighted economics.

Never mind, hopefully the oil will run out or we will all choke to death and then we won't have any problems.

[That icon because I'm a speccy git too]

Why is Hybrid petrol + diesel?

If modern diesel engines outperform hybrids in terms of MPG and CO2 emission, why are Hybrids using petrol? If a hybrid used a combination of electric and diesel, it would return fantastic economy.

@ Quiz Time

AC, there this thing about spelling: if you put different letters in a different order it's a different word!

Citeron - never heard of it.

citron - French for lemon

Citroën - French for good value car

Your "joke" makes as much sense as "Ford is American for Fraud" or "Prius is Japanese for Pricy"

I have had Ctroëns for over 20 years and have had one breakdown in that period. My wife drove the same AX for 15 years until the MOT cost more than the car was worth. It was ungaraged for all that time and had moss growing on it but it still went like the clappers and gave 48 mpg even when thrashed down the motorway at full speed (85mph)

The latest petrol C1 is exempt from the congestion charge- like the Prius - as it is so low emitting .

Why?

because hybrids were primarily designed for the Japanese and US markets where they don't like Diesel. Fitting Prius with a good Diesel generator would certainly increase efficiency - possibly by >30%.

Re:US Bloatville

***"You'd think that at 3 dollars a gallon (gasoline), people would be buying something more economical, but all they do is complain about the price of gas."***

Wait until your prices get to the same level us poor suckers in the UK are forced to pay. £1.04 per litre of unleaded, which equates to £4 per gallon(US) or, at current exchange rates, $7.80 a US gallon. So it'd cost you $125 fill up a Chrysler Voyager (16 gallon tank).

And our feckin' wonderful government is going to slap another 2p tax on each litre (equiv to 15 cents/gallon) in April.

Bastards!!!!

Yea - and

After enjoying a warm 18 degree February day on Saturday, even I agree hybrids are not the way.

I think we should all get big 4 litre 4x4's - this global warming is becoming a hoot, and we will soon be able to sale over the top of Canada - just like the Vikings did (they obviously had 4x4's and jumbo jets too as they successfully changed the climate).

One day will dig up a great big pit full of viking fridges - the ozone busting ones they dumped to cause the cooling.

Is'nt mankind clever!

The French are missing an important source of energy anyway

Considering the regional dish in the southwest of the country is cassoulet - basically a bean hotpot made with preserved duck or pork (absolutely delicious, and I say this as a vegetarian who's trying to lose weight) - maybe a small alteration to the design of the driver's seat could make use of this major natural resource for powering the car?

In the UK, the less gastronomic curry'n'lager mix could provide the same service. In the Americas, lovers of refried beans everywhere would cease being antisocial overnight. Indeed, it would be a patriotic duty in many countries to eat dishes containing dried pulses and/or onions, and down a regular pint (although we'd need a regulatory body here and I suggest CamRA).

IGMC

Taxi!

Obvious

It's hardly surprising that the Pious isn't all that - like all these hybrids, it gets all its energy from burning petrol - the fact that some of it is stored in some enormously heavy batteries temporarily doesn't change that fact. Allowing for the losses in coverting the kinetic enregy of the engine to electrical, and then back again, they're bound to be less efficient.

The only efficiency advantage with a hybrid is the regenerative braking, which recovers the kinetic energy of the car instead of converting it to heat and throwing it overboard.

As I understand it, the only reason hybrids are popular at all is because of the Californian-style zero emissions legislation which will disallow petrol cars in city centres. The hybrid avoids this by inefficiently generating electrical power with its petrol engine before going into the city. It has nothing to do with reduing the energy usage.

Catalytic converters were developed for the same reason - to get rid of the smog in Los Angeles. They make a petrol engine *less* efficient and generate *more* CO2 - will we be seeing them banned any time soon?

I want electric car

I drive 15 miles each way to work ( I can't afford to live any closer to work due to house prices ) Its all motor way miles.

If i could get an electric car to do the journey I would, As it is I have just bought a Skoda Fabia VRS (effectively a VW Polo with a different badge) its a sensible 1.9 turbo diesel (with a 130hp and 405nm of torque) which on my journey to work retuns 57MPG over a tank.

Tell me can I get a hybrid that does this well? Can I find an all electric car that can drive on the motorways?

And why is everyone so sure about little French cars, the German diesels are far better (performance/reliability/economic) having just replaced my old Xsara.

Flame Icon for anyone who loves their French cars.