Given that the USA recently passed a law (or made a presidential pronouncement, can't remember and does it matter) saying that they could grab anyone, US citizen, citizen of another country, not just from within the US borders, but anywhere in the world, the idea of sharing info so that this can happen seems a, well, a mistake.

Anyone can be taken from any country without due process at any time. That's the basic. I don't think the USA would snatch a high-profile politicians or businessman, but anybody who has a name identical to one ont he 'worst of the worst' list, or one similar to it, or indeed anyone whose name happens to get onto the list by accident, can be here one minute, and Gitmo or some Syrian torture-pit the next.

So our 60 million entry database will be open to the US government who would probably be able to find at least one person matching anything they were looking for, and then extradite them based on the "evidence" provided by the biometric lookup?

does this mean we'll no longer be able to get away with visa waiver if we've received a caution for being drunk and incapable on a public highway?

As an aside - I'm really shocked.

Isn't that already existing under a different name ? It's called 'kidnapping', I believe. I doubt any country would take kindly to disappearing citizens.

"I doubt any country would take kindly to disappearing citizens."

I'm sure the great respect with which the US treats other countries opinions should keep us all safe and free then. Besides, US policy is always in everyones best interest so if a country objects to US policy they're probably terrorists and ripe liberating.

Oh, yes. They will liberate the shit out of you!

And we are surprised because ?

Come on virus developers - it's time someone wrote something useful.

It must be possible to develop some dbase destroying code that could render such big brother tactics futile.

(One can only hope).

The principle of fingerprint data being filed was much less of an issue when it took some effort and diligence to find/fit up a perp and the data were held for convicts for a set time.

With "biometrics for everyone forever" and shared to boot, it's a bit like junk mail and the postal service. Your details will be available to every nonse who wants to get at you.

Sorry, what am I saying, this is a protected, secure, access controlled linked database. What possible fears can a righteous person, with nothing to hide, have. Silly me. I need my dosage changing.

Before I die and they lay me to rest

Gonna be in the database that's the best

When I do anything not hurt a fly

Goin' up to the server in the sky

Goin' up to the server in the sky

That's where my details go before I die

When I die and they lay me to rest

I still be on that database that's the best

Prepare yourself you know it's a must

Gotta have a friend in George Bush

So you know that before you die

He's gonna enter you

Onto the server in the sky

Gonna enter you

Onto the server in the sky

That's where your details go before you die

Before you die and they lay you to rest

You're gonna go to the USA under arrest

Never been a sinner I never sinned

I got a friend in George Bush

So you know that don't matter a fly

He's gonna set me up on

The server in the sky

Oh set me up on the server in the sky

That's where my details go before I die

Before I die and they lay me to rest

I'm gonna be on the database that's the best

Gonna go to that Guantanamo

The likely hood of me moving to a non-English speaking country just took a leap upwards.

I'm thinking Poland, I hear they've had a bit of a population drop in the past few years ;-)

Oh, and I like Krupnik... Żywiec... Snow...

everyone's banging on about privacy but its OK for our government to GIVE this info to the US (as in its US against the world), without our prior written consent... In a country where we've already got people kicking up a fuss over the DNA database?

I'm with the virus writers idea, come on lads, put a stop to it! You used to fight for all that was free and just!

So will they change the USA law to make domestic spying on foreign countries (ie. UK) illegal? Or will it both be legal for the USA to spy on it's 'friends' and at the same time we give them the tools to do it?

And will we change our laws to make it illegal for us to spy on them? Or will be just help ourselves to their data? How do we stop this being used to circument local laws.

And how will we enforce the above rules? Or do we just cross our fingers and hope for the best?

And when US Congress can't make the administration abide by US law, even though they have the power of empeachment, how will we? What happens when another Bush comes along and starts abusing it? How will be know it's being abused if there's no process at our end checking the requests that come in?

Personally, I'd prefer some sort of judicial process. I know it's terribly old fashioned, but some kind of checks and balances in there, warrants, remember those? Presumption of innocence, that old fashioned idea. That stuff. If only privacy was written into some sort of human rights document. If only.

We already know full well that the spineless ignorant wankers we call politicians cannot understand Security related issues and will, therefore, kowtow to any "security professional" telling them they need to permit cavity searches wherever and whenever in order to protect us from the "terrrrists". Which is why - rather than trying feebly to bat away their dangerous ideas - we need to come up with our own security solutions which will protect us from both Tyrant AND Terrorist.

If you haven't already seen my own efforts in that context, here's the starting point:

http://www.fullmoon.nu/book/side_issues/IdentityCards.htm

Thanks guys...all your names have been recorded !

I presume we'll be sending them the data by TNT on CDs.

If they were to send the data by CD, I would breathe easier.

The Italians actually tried to get the USA into court over the alleged Al Qaida terrorist some American spooks snatched from uner the nose of Italian security, who had just finished building a picture of the terrorist network in their country and were going go for a group grab into jail. But the Yanks grabbed the guy off the street and stuck him on a plane to destinations and fate unknown. If they got from him anything about his Italian connections, they didn't share with the Italians.

So that made the world safer, then.

And now we want to give them a list of everybody in this country, and hope that a little typo doesn't move a twelve-year -old into the 'terrorist' category.

Cui bono? Which group of people stands to benefit most from this?

People whose national allegiances are secondary to their main interests. People who can move freely from country to country. People who are so important as to be allowed to move freely from country to country. People who have the muscle to cause this database sharing to come about. People who need to keep tabs on the masses, but not because they care about them. Is the penny dropping?

No new law was passed. It was just an interpretation of stuff from the 19th century and then a reaffirmation in 1992. Insane if you asked me.

"We've always known that police forces will share the information they gather, to say otherwise is stupidly naive. And in most instances that makes more sense than otherwise, helping to catch some of the worst types of criminals, such as paedophiles and murderers that skip countries to escape punishment."

It is a problem because you're removing the judicial check on the foreign claim if you opt for an *automated* system. So a foreign power can look up anyones details on SPURIOUS or out right FALSE grounds under an automated system, whereas for a system with judicial review, a UK judge will check it is done with compliance to UK law.

There's also no comeback for false claims, since UK law doesn't apply outside UK.

Human Rights Act 1998 Article 8, gives a general right of privacy. For the state to interfere with that privacy it must be:

• In accordance with law; and

• In the interests of the legitimate objectives identified in Article 8(2); and

• Necessary in a democratic society.

There is no '*.*' wildcard attached on the end of that. They can't simply hand data over legally without ensuring it complies with these 3 things. That's UK law BTW, the USA can give NSA full access to spy on everything by everyone and it means squat inside the UK. GCHQ is still obligated to abide by UK law.

That reminds me of the collapse of cyberpunk post 2027

Firstly was a massive ai computer virus that destroyed almost all computer data.

However just to make sure there was a nanite paper virus that destroyed all the paper records.

Over reliance on technology will almost certainly come back to bite us one day. Or maybe it wont, as in the "governments" of the future may well have complete control of our computer resources and shape our histories to their whim. There would be no physical paper books to deny their truth as they shall all have been locked away long ago. So we will always be happy with their truth.

Jeez that's a scarry thought and not far off if you look around... Great I've just wrapped myself up in my own conspiracy theory.

belong to us..

When I worked in the Netherlands, I remember a security guard telling me about (and I'm unsure of the facts here so if anyone knows more then please elaborate) the Dutch government or legal system detaining some American VIP's (they were either diplomats or armed services' personnel) due to some crime committed against the Dutch. The Americans told the Dutch government that if the VIP's were not released then they would invade and take them by force. The Dutch released them.

What the event was I cannot fully recall but the words of that security guard I believe. The American government wants everybody else to play its game and follow it blindly without adding their own rules to create fair play. The only countries America listens to are those that are too big (financially and militarily) and gutsy to be threatened (although it doesn't stop them from trying to dominate them).

Unfortunately, the world needs America - It has done a lot of good as well as bad. It's given us fast food, Hollywood films, the confidence of freedom to express ourselves, it has taught us to embrace new technology. Left to Europe our forefathers would have waited many more years than they did before they moved from candles to electric lighting. But, we also need another country or group of countries willing to keep America in check to prevent it from repeating the mistakes of old, imperial Europe.

The hall mark of a great nation is not one were it can make its citizen disappear, or those of another country. No the hall mark of a great country is one that can do it with out people complaining or noticing.

It isn't, the US, typically has still not ratified the reciprocal arrangement. So yes, they can haul off any British citizen or resident with minimal evidence, if any, with minimal interfearence by the British judiciary.

Let us not forget the American legal system is all abouut revenge, funding private sector jails, by keeping them full, and making sure the DAs and Judges stay in office by being seen to be tough on crime. I don't think justice come into their system anywhere, unless you are American and have lots and lots of money.

Not much mention of the UK opt out of schengen treaty here, and the up-and coming conflict between it and Ireland over northern ireland border crossings.... when Ireland DOES decide to join.Will we have to ask the Americans if we need to go to MittelEuropa? Lets face it... They've already got our drivers licence details in Ohio.

Good, law abiding, patriotic individuals have nothing to worry about. We should all have to give the authorities our fingerprints and a DNA sample, it would make life easier for the police.

Since the credit for incadescent lightbulb technology was effectively stolen by the American Edison from British inventor Joseph Swan, then tweaked for viable mass-production (not a particularly difficult task once you've put some money behind the endeavour), we wouldn't have been waiting a particularly long time for an alternative to candle-light. Research the Edison & Swan Electric Light Company, formed after the fait accompli of Edison's having dishonestly patented Swan's technology in the US. The myth of America's timely gift to the world of such technological revolutions is in this case, as in so many others, simply down to good old avarice and the Machiavellian grasping of credit where it's scarcely due. Oh, we're calling it entrepreneurialism now; that's right. Silly me.

You do realise that you are in contravention of copyright by making unauthorised use of a copyrighted work.

And contributory infringement, too (I had to think of the tune to follow the words to see if they fit appropriately).

AND on the internet!

Bad boy!

Please report for termination. The computer is your friend.

Tell that to the family of Jean Charles de Menezes.

In addition, from the aforementioned http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0919/p01s08-usju.html :-

"In December 2003, German citizen Khaled el-Masri boarded a bus in Germany for a holiday in Skopje, Macedonia.

Instead of a restful vacation, the Muslim man of Lebanese heritage says he ended up in a Central Intelligence Agency isolation cell in Afghanistan as a suspected terrorist. He was released after five months of interrogation with no explanation justifying the action or apology if it was a mistake."

The standard talking point is that those in Guantanámo were "lifted from the battlefield". The reality is that more than half were captured by the Afghan Northern Alliance and exchanged for CIA cash.

Well the reverse is also true. If I am not a criminal then they don't need my DNA. We supposedly live in a country where you are innocent until proven guilty. I'd rather not live in a police state thanks very much.