First Henry Kissinger getting the Nobel Peace Prize, now this.

How is it these women only things are possible, if there was mens only literature award there would probably be uproar. And before someone says something like there is too many men dominating things its bull its the womans choice to get involved or not and if they feel they can't because there is too many men thats their problem. The pendulum always swings both ways.

For those not familiar with Feminism 101, oppression does not go upward. If you are not treated as equal by the group that holds power, excluding them does not oppress them. In South Africa, Black-only organisations did not oppress whites. Whites were outraged that they couldn't go anywhere and be allowed in, but their outrage did not arise from oppression, but from a limit to their (immoral) power.

Clearly, women are not oppressed in the same way. But when so many prizes, top-level jobs, (heck, even middle-manager jobs) go to 'chaps like us' or the 'face that fits', it is not suprised that women see themselves as being treated unequally.

I believe that the Orange Prize was set up because the organisers felt that the major literature awards were disproportionately being given to men, and that they could level the playing field a bit by setting up this prize.

However much I am in sympathy with them, I am also torn, because being the top in a smaller, exclusionary field is surely never as satisfying. For instance, do you want to win 'woman web designer of the year' or 'web designer of the year'? Or 'Asian manager of the year' or 'Manager of the year'?

Like all forms of art, you need to have studied a little to be able to criticise effectively. It's a pretty crap award if a random group of readers all vote for their favourite book.

Does anyone, apart from a few luvvies pay attention to the Orange Prize. I never read novels so I don't think I have ever looked at any of the winners.

Give me a proper non-fiction book any time, where someone has had to do some research and proper work in writing the book.

We can all point to women who earn plenty more than men, and have more power, too. I can do so in my own company. But the stats come out with depressing sameness: women are *over all* paid less than men, and women *over all* are less frequently seen in the higher echelons of management. Replace 'woman' with 'non-white male' and I suspect it would remain true.

I look at the middle and upper management of my own (very big) company and see one woman and one non-white man, out of a good round dozen. They are there, but what does that say about society as a whole? They are the exceptions.

Does that mean the woman manager here would like to win 'woman manager of the year', or the Black make manager 'Black manager of the year'? Hmmm. Don't know. Yet what are the chances of them winning 'manager of the year'?

As I said, I am not sure what to think about women-only areas of competition. I can see the place for them, and I don't think they are sexist, but I would much rather win the Man Booker Prize than the Orange Prize. Because then I would know I had been up against the toughest opposition.

Of course, to win ANY prize with money would be great. My personal competition of choice is the Lottery. Totally gender and race neutral!

i've worked in places ranging from your local shop to big multi-nationals.

on all my lowly paid jobs, men and women were relatively equal. but when you get to the big company/organisation, well there were much fewer women than men. Sure there are women managers, but organisations prefer to move them around vertically than up the ladder...

and that's beside the fact that women are often the target of seedy jokes and unfair judgment. if she makes a bad decision 'well what do you expect from a woman' and if she makes a good one 'well at least she's got some brains as well as an ass/titties/pretty face' (select appropriate).

i'm not all that bothered but i wanted to back hollerith on this point. there is certainly a wiff of inequality in the air that makes it necessary for women to fight harder... i personally think that's part of life and i deal with it, but it isn't always as easy or as fair as men think.

So far as I can see, Lily is as vacuous, sarcastic and spoilt as her father is arsey and unpleasant. Lets see, dad Keith employs a whole bands worth of very expensive session musicians for her online musical debut, ensuring that her rise to fame is as undeserved as his own. So relying on dad's large pot of cash to buy celebrity is a shining example to all feminists is it? Frankly, here in Brighton you can go to any open mike night and see girls that are exponentially more talented than Lily, who also almost certainly know exponentially more about social politics.

fair enough. i was mostly responding to the comment

"ON average Men work more hours, and see their families less than women do.Work the same fucking hours and you'll get the same money."

although if that was a joke, well then slap me silly and call me paris hilton..

Are you having a go at the flowers now???

"If Lily reads a lot, whole books and serious books, then she is a fair choice"

I love the way that sentence was extensively qualified. Guess 'Hello' is out then?

Re. Minority Group

I'm a white male, age 18 to 49. Everyone listens to me -- no matter how dumb my suggestions are! Mmmm, nuts and gum.

Have you ever actually moved up the ladder or just viewed it from the bottom?

If so you'll see that the bottom rung has LOTS of jokes directed at EVERYONE. But no just shut your eyes to that.

I have never heard the excuses for women making bad decisions in a managment position that you have written (or for anyone).... If you screw up, doesn't matter what gender/race/orientation you are, your still out on your arse.

Seriously, stop making excuses and make a decision..... Equality means that you have to pick one OR the other. Work or family, you can't earn the most money AND spend all your time with your family.

And as AC further up said, the most unprotected shit upon class IS the white male.

well, i am not old enough to start a family and anyway, i don't see how having children is related to the argument i was making earlier. So your comment on 'stop making excuses and make a decision' is beyond the point. I was not arguing about choosing between career and children, i am talking about equality in salaries.

And i admit that i have only been working in 'white collar' jobs for 3 years. Even if my experience is limited, i can still read an organisational chart. When out of 30 odd people at the top of the pyramid, only one is a woman, well this makes me wonder how hard the competition will be to get up there.

Finally, i just want to say that i do deal with it. i was stating a simple fact that i have observed and my life goes on regardless of whether people choose to pretend that some discrimination is inexistent because they have never seen/heard it. Sure there is unequality in all classes/race/sex by all kinds of people. It's not because it exists in many cases, that it is excusable in any of them.