back to article Public says no to ID cards, No2ID says 'starve the beast!'

No2ID has launched a new campaign of civil disobedience* against ID cards, as a new poll shows that for the first time, opponents of the cards outnumber supporters. The poll - carried out by YouGov for the Daily Telegraph, shows 48 per cent against versus 43 per cent for. The poll turnaround bears out a long-standing prediction …

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JP
Black Helicopters

Or...

Everyone could request time-sensitive documents that require ID cards, prompting a surge in ID requests and crashing the system!

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Paris Hilton

we need to simplify the figures

48 per cent against versus 43 per cent for

wotz all dis word stuff?

In keeping with successive governments aims for the levelling of teaching standards in schools, this equates to

4+8=12 ... 1+2=3 versus 4+3=7 or,

put briefly, ... 3 against and 7 ... which any decent statistician will tell you means another resounding success story for freedom.

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Maths Qualification

"...shows 48 per cent against versus 43 per cent for."

Now where does the extra per cent need to be removed from??

Will the number of people against the ID Card actually make any difference to whether or not they are finallised and actually issued!?

How many other things have gone forward even with the majority being against the idea!?

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Paris Hilton

Holidays

So, when you want to go on holiday and your passport has expired, how do you resist the ID card mechanisms?

Paris, because I might want to go there..

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Ray

hmhmhm

48 + 43 = 91, not 101! presumably, the remaining 9% didn't really give a fuck or had no idea what the questioner was on about.

as for your question... i can't remember voting to go to war with iraq. oh, i remember. tony didn't want our opinion (it's okay, though. god knew the answer).

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Anonymous Coward

hmm

does this whole rigmarole remind us of a particular Tory party decade ago?

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Fine until

I'm sure no2id will have a lot of supporters until the crown starts summoning people to give data. How many people were against the Poll Tax, and marched against it, but when it comes to actually standing up in court and being counted people loose thier nerve.

Has anyone worked how long it is going to take to take biometric readings from 60+ million people? Imagine if every songle person in the UK eligible for a UK passport all requested a new one on Jan 1st, how long do you think it would take for all our passport offices to recover?

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Half baked

I fully support No2ID's aims BUT:

This certificate is all very well, but exactly what purpose does it serve? Who is every going to see it? The "How it Works" section on their website is delightfully vague - there seems to be an implication that merely (anonymously) downloading and (maybe) printing this thing is sufficient in itself!

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Resistance is futile

"...if enough people refuse to co-operate. Then, "

They'll all get tasered.

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Enough Opposition

But if there is enough opposition that it becomes completely unworkable, as No2ID wants, it will be dropped. If it weren't for the huge opposition to the Poll Tax, we would still have it now.

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Anonymous Coward

mmm

This all fine and dandy, until you realize that this entails doing without a driving licence or medical care - the posturing like 'I'll go to prison rather than have an id card' amounts to nothing: the govt aren't going to put you in prison. What they will do is ensure that when you move and need to get a new driving licence, you'll have to do the fingerprint + interrogation thing. You say, sod that and drive illegally? You jump that hurdle, get a pull, get fined for non production of licence. Jump that hurdle, the boys come round with a distress warrant, jump that hurdle.. The govt. have thought about this, and they aren't being nice about it, a week in the slammer might be doable, ongoing and debilitating hassle isn't quite such fun.

You will no doubt have noticed that our glorious govt is proposing to stop aliens, spongers and assorted bogeypeople getting GP care. Once this capability is installed, to applause from all right thinking people, it will be used (and this is an explicit threat that has been made) to coerce people into signing up. If you move you won't be able to sign up with a GP without an ID card. So how about a pledge to do without life saving medical care rather than have an ID card, because that's what the bastards are lining up for us.

Oh, you think paying taxes means you get medical care? Taxation isn't about paying for a service, it's about rendering tribute to your masters.

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Black Helicopters

Civil Disobedience?

Civil disobedience is only condoned/supported/encouraged/instigated by Western governments when it is directed at governments that THEY don't like! China, Burma, Ukraine... etc.

If their own slaves dare to stand up, then they get crushed.

As the readers of the Reg will have noticed, the governments attack-dogs (police) are tooling up with tasers and all manner of new powers of detention without trial etc... So think twice before you consider disobeying them - especially if you happen to have the wrong skin colour and a beard...

I like the No2ID campaign - even got the T-shirt - but short of the government shooting itself in the foot a few more times (and no new "terror/pedophile/organized crime" attacks), I doubt it will have much effect.

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Black Helicopters

I've noticed that...........

several friends and relations who were firmly in the "Nothing to hide, nothing to fear" camp have dramatically changes their minds since the HMRC cock-up.

So if, as a few around here have suggested, Darling *did* engineer the missing disc fiasco in order to promote ID cards then it has well and truly backfired on him.

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@nickj

I still have a license to drive. There's no expiry date on it, except when I'm 70.

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tom

@bambi

"How many people were against the Poll Tax, and marched against it, but when it comes to actually standing up in court and being counted people loose thier nerve."

Well, foiled by your own argument there, we don't actually have poll tax because of the public discontent. Similarly what happened to fuel prices about 5 years ago when everyone protested about the taxation?

Group action does work in many cases, if it doesn't work immediately Gordon will lose his job and any issue that offers that kind of threat will be soon abandoned.

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Paris Hilton

Property Owners beware

It's all very well and good but when it comes down to it, if you have any property, ultimately you have to be prepared to lose it. Because "they" can take it. If "they" fine you and you don't pay, you have to bet they'll get it from you somehow. Only Paris makes it b(e)arable.

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@Mark

So you plan to walk everywhere when you're 70? What if you get dodgy feet but otherwise stay perfectly healthy until you're 90? Then you're old and immobile. That would surely suck.

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Pirate

@Neal

We do still have the Poll Tax now though (albeit with the rules slightly tweaked and renamed as 'Council Tax').

Still, none the less I have signed up to NO2ID. My passport doesn't expire for another 8years and I don't drive.

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W
Black Helicopters

Council Tax

"If it weren't for the huge opposition to the Poll Tax, we would still have it now."

...and ended up woth the resounding success story that is Council Tax. Oh.

"I fully support No2ID's aims BUT:

This certificate is all very well, but exactly what purpose does it serve?"

Indeed. Presumably they have to come up with something new to maintain interest while the gov't slyly introduces all the background prep legislation in order to have us by the balls and make ID cards a shoe-in without the Poll Tax style charade.

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Anonymous Coward

@Mark

cool.

if and when you move, what happens?

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Flame

Um.. Google results for..

"poll tax riots" : 17,500

"poll tax civil disobedience" : 3

Even if it comes to that we'll still get ID cards with a few cosmetic tweaks and a new name.

The power-brokers in this country have decided that we will have ID cards whether we like it or not and have shown they are willing to lie, connive and intimidate to get this deplorable plan through parliment - whatever it costs in terms of our tax money, liberty or rights.

The ONLY way to have a chance of stopping this is to vote for a party who promises to scrap the entire plan if they get into power and then hold them to their promise however much pressure they come under from those who want this obscenity imposed upon us.

Any other strategy is naive wishful thinking.

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@Mark

There were lifetime drivers licenses in NZ as well - until the Government rendered them invalid in favour of 10 year ones (with the argument that a plastic CC size was easier and more durable than the monster paper versions and made a handy ID card). Mind you, you had the option not to have your address on it, which made it much easier when shifting house.

Interestingly, when I got a UK licence in 2006 it had a 10 year lifespan. And I have just been informed I am supposed to carry the bit of paper as well, which makes me wonder what the point of the plastic card is in that case.

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Black Helicopters

@nickj

scarily accurate, i reckon. they won't immediately do anything very brash or hardline. they'll slowly nudge towards the control. if you were to do anything too quickly or extreme-looking, there would be mass revolt or, more likely, it would be political suicide for those concerned.

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@ Poll tax

In the case of the poll tax, it wasn't 'civil disobedience' such as non-payment that won the day - it was full-scale rioting in central London.

The populace is more supine today than in 1990 and (thanks to the "war on terror") the police have much more extensive powers. Can you really see people massing in Trafalgar Square to rip up paving slabs and trash shops in protest against ID cards? No - and, sadly, neither can I.

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@CRidley

I'll either walk or take the bus.

Neither of which require a drivers license.

Yet.

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I resigned myself to this a few months ago

Initially I was planning on going to prison rather than carry compulsory ID. I looked hard at myself and was fairly sure that I did in fact have the stomach to go through with it.

Unfortunately at the time I was assuming that the government would say 'Hey, you, get an ID card' and I'd say 'No'. In fact I've come to realise that they'd never say 'Get an ID card', they'd say 'Want a new driving licence? Here it is, it's an ID card now' or 'Want a passport? Here it is, it's an ID card now'. Alternatively, I'd need an ID card to get a job. So if you refused to get an ID card you wouldn't be a political prisoner, you'd just be unemployed, unable to go on holiday and unable to drive. They've already softened us up for this by making all firms demand passports before you work for them.

So there isn't going to be any civil disobediance. Not from me, much as I'd like to, not from anybody. The government is far too clever to give us the option. Britain is now so restrictive, you can't even protest properly.

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Anonymous Coward

woho

"Nothing to hide, nothing to fear"

I've heard that premise many times before applied to many different things. I love it so much because I think its flawed and its quoted time and again to get people to conform to rubbish ideas.

if I have nothing to hide and nothing to fear, why do I need an id card? the need for id card instantly assumes that somebody without one has something to hide. it instiles a certain amount of automatic distrust that a person will always lie about who they are.

the truth is that id cards will provide very little protected for those determined to bypass the system; how long before counterfiet id cards appear for sale on ebay after the scheme is introduced?

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Thumb Down

@bambi

"Has anyone worked how long it is going to take to take biometric readings from 60+ million people? "

Roughly 10 years depending on how serious the government is at the time. For the joy of your very own identity you get to travel to some location to be interrogated and asked to prove who you are, finger printed, photographed and possibly images taken of your irises. All at your own expense. Last I heard there were going to be less than 500 interrogation offices so the travel distance for some will be large and may involve losing a days work.

So, not only do you get to pay for your own ID card, you may also lose a days pay on top.

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Flame

Better campaign would be to pledge votes for NO2ID candidates

Hit the buggers where it hurts and explain it in a language they can understand.

Rather than muck about with Certificates, NO2ID should be tooling up council and MP candidates on a NO2ID platform as well as canvassing sympathetic members of parliament and the house of lords.

How many current or would be MP's would offer to stand against it in exchange for a large number of consituancy votes and a shoe-in at the next election which is coming sooner than they can push this madness through as law?

If enough people show they are willing to oust the government from their cosy little madcap plan of 'gold standand' identity verification then, determined as these idiots are, they are unlikely to risk their jobs to push it through.

Are you looking forward to the day when your entire life can be obtained by any old low-wage grudge holding civil servant with the right kind of access for a small fee to fund his drink/drug/gambling habit?

It's like an organised crime's wet dream, and thse tw@t5 are blissfully steering us towards that abyss! Say NO2ID.

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Black Helicopters

more poll tax for Sceptical B*st*rd

..I think that you're right. The hated Poll-Tax was unpopular because it hit people in their pockets (just as poll-taxes always do and why historically in Britain they've always been a failure) However like you I doubt that the sheeple today will fight back like they did then.

I was in those poll-tax *riots* - actually they weren't riots at all, everyone around me was behaving in a orderly (if noisy) manner. It was only when the mounted Police charged at some folks a way away that things kicked off - bear in mind (and I witnessed this myself) the cops were charging at families, women and kids and old people, who'd gone for what was intended to be a big fun day out, not at some violent anarchists wrecking central London. Rather changed my opinion of the Police, that day did. My brother-in-law got truncheoned on the head and all he was trying to was get back to us in the confusion. Hardly surprising that some people decided to fight back - if a copper had tried to have a go at me or my family I'd have lamped him without a moment's hesitation.

Cops aren't necessarily the good guys, y'know. There's more than a few vicious thugs amongst them, not all at bobby level. As an institution, not just as individuals, they can be very, very nasty people indeed.

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Happy

Proof that elections can make all the difference...

Take Aus's recent election. For the last 13 years we've been stuck with conservative Lil' Johnny but in the last term he refused to ratify Kyoto, he introduced an incredibly unpopular Industrial relations package which severely hurt many of Aus's poorer workers and kept us in Iraq despite the public's wishes against it. Then Kevin rudd came along and ran his whole political campaign as the "I'm the same as John Howard economically but ill change the unpopular things" mandate and guess what? He won in a landslide. He's already ratified Kyoto (on his first day as PM) and is moving to make the other changes.

So all you need to do in Britain is convince the opposition to make a flat out NO2ID stance and you can vote them in and kiss the ID card good bye... Although this does rely on you having an opposition party that opposes the ID cards...

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More on Aussie election

It's also interesting to note that Rudd moved away from references to Terrorism and Illegal immigrants and all the normal scape goats. He spoke of such optimism of the future it was amazing. People were cheering on the streets the night of the election. A new sense of optimism has gone through the people. Even many people who voted for the encumberant and saying that he's not a bad choice.

In the one and only live debate we had the "worm" essentially its a marketing tool to show what people are thinking about what is currently being said. At the time it was accused of bias but I noticed that every time one of the leaders spoke positively of the future the people responded massively in favour.

In the end it turned out that in the politics of fear the certainty of global warming beats the potential of terrorism.

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This post has been deleted by a moderator

Paris Hilton

ID cards: just more of the same old, same old!

Anonymous said, “Vote for the party that has a policy of not having an ID card scheme”, as far as I know, in this country there is only one party that has that in a manifesto, and that is the UKIP. They also have a flat tax rate for central government funding and a local sales tax for local government funding. They are planning to introduce local direct democracy, and education based on ability, not parents bank balance or some arbitrary percentage of the population. VAT would be abolished, because it is the principal source of funding for the EU, and is largely controlled by the EC. They do not accept the concept of “road pricing” nor that everyone should be photographed all day and every day, they were also against the war in Iraq.

Here is the fun thing though, not enough people vote for them in any given constituency to get a seat in parliament, so when the Sensible (Tory), Silly (Labour) and Very silly party, all unanimously agree to introduce state funding of political parties on the basis of the number of seats held by a party, the UKIP will disappear in a puff of smoke.

When government becomes obsessed by spying on its own people, you know they have lost the plot, and that has been steadily happening here since the Attlee government, paranoia is a sister to socialism.

So what has happened after sixty years of this crap from both Tories and Labour? The gap between rich and poor is wider than ever, social mobility is more or less non existent, and we are continuously being frightened by:

Reds under the bed

Nuclear war

Ice age

Salmonella in eggs

Listeria

Mad cow disease

Millennium bugs

Passive smoking

Asbestos

Leaded petrol

Terrorism

Global warming;

All of which have been unnecessarily exaggerated for the purpose of gaining more control. Out of this list, none have proved to be true, and global warming will be no different, terrorism is caused by government. In my view, this is a product that is a long way past its “sell by date” and we should chuck it out before it causes irreparable damage.

How refreshing to vote for a party that is led by a man who drinks too much, smokes too much and would certainly not be against entering Paris after a night out on the town.

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Anonymous Coward

Vote

I have heard the Conservatives and Lib Dems say in The House that they oppose ID cards. Do they even have manifestos at this time?

The reason not so many people vote for UKIP is because they come across as hateful fucking bigots, by and large, one step short of BNP in a sharp suit.

But write to your MP and tell them you won't vote for them if they support ID cards. Write to the opposition parties and tell them you will vote for them if Labour continues with the Plan and they promise to scrap it.

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Unhappy

Re. Aussie Election

"He spoke of such optimism of the future it was amazing. People were cheering on the streets the night of the election. A new sense of optimism has gone through the people. Even many people who voted for the encumberant and saying that he's not a bad choice."

Does anyone else remember 1997?

The future seemed so much brighter, with our shiny New Labour government.

What the hell happened?!?!?!

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Unhappy

No change there, then.......

Irrespective of the amount of public opposition to the ID card scheme, our 'Masters' will go ahead with it anyway -their past performance confirms this. They take absolutely no notice of the people who put them where they are, to serve the public - Huuuh !!!

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Anonymous Coward

@Brett

"He spoke of such optimism of the future it was amazing. People were cheering on the streets the night of the election. A new sense of optimism has gone through the people."

Hmmm. I remember that feeling. When Tony Blair won the first time .....

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Bronze badge

Time for a new T-Shirt

"I watched you on the CCTV and I touched myself" seems appropriate. Such a shame we can't automatically create Cash n Carrion custom t-shirts from urls. Hint, hint.

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RE: mmm

The roads are so jam packed round here that learning to drive is the same as learning to queue, and a car becomes nothing more than a very expensive chair.

GP appointments take 5 days or more for "urgent" appointments, so we're now in the habbit of only going to A+E in the worst cases and not bothering with the GP. In a real emergency situation, no hospital doctor is going to refuse treatment because you don't have an ID card.

Prison is also not a major worry, as there are no empty cells left. They could lock us all up, but then the Daily Mail would be screaming about eastern european immigrant axe murderers running free.

We end up with a 2 tier society (hey, at least it aint so many classes as the old system), or they eventually drop the whole plan. Either way, I wouldn't trust the government to organise a piss up in a brewery, so I'll never give them more info than they need.

P.S, as an example of how too much information is already having an effect, I offered to help out at my kids school with anything technical. It's something I've done before, at both my old school and my kid brothers primary, but now they require a huge form to be filled in. At the point where it asked for my bank details, I binned it and informed the school I could not help because of the amount of information requested. Fair enough if it was a single case, but it isn't. Others have also withdrawn offers of assistance because of it. Volunteers on all levels right up to governers are now only to be chosen from those who don't mind the government poking around in their bank accounts.

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(Written by Reg staff)

Guy Herbert comments

I suppose it's understandable that Guy Herbert won't sign up for The Register, but as with a previous outing he's asked me to post his response to a few queries. As previously, I'm happy to do so:

1. Why a certificate?

Because it is easier for people to keep a promise if they tell people about it. It makes reference to exactly what they have promised easier. And it makes spreading the idea automatic, because at least one other person is involved in witnessing the promise.

2. But the Government is being clever and undermining resistance by the leverage of passports, etc...

Well that's precisely the point. The Government plan is to go softly softly, so we need to undermine that. The more people resist, say "I would rather not..." to any particular thing, the more induction mechanisms have to be set up in parallel, and the hungrier and messier they will become. That helps build resistance, and exposes the database state. You can, by the way, renew your passport right now and get out of that one for 10 years. The interrogation centres are behind schedule.

3. HIt them in the ballot box, by sponsoring candidates.

Nope. Because that means (1) we would forfeit our all party opposition support , and (2) we would end up being regulated by the Electoral Commission which would cause massive administrative overhead AND contradict our commitment to anonymity for our supporters if they want it.

However, I'm sure a lot of people - and politically thoughtful people, highly likely to vote - will decide their vote on this issue. I have lifelong socialists coming to me and saying, "I would never, ever have voted Conservative, but..." There is an electoral effect, if enough people are made aware. That was what did for the Poll Tax - general unpopularity, even among those who paid up.

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Black Helicopters

Yeah

Two weeks ago I renewed my passport, despite having 4 years left to run on it, in an attempt to at least forestall my entry onto any proto-NIR. That should be enough for me as I'm planning to migrate next year anyway.

Funnily enough, I posted my docs on the Monday afternoon, and got the shiny new passport on Friday morning. Clearly this is a good time of the year to renew a passport. Think they're clearing their decks and ramping up to deal with full-fledged ID cards?

Most of the commentators are right, I suspect. Governments don't like martyrs, and they'll do all they can to use a wedge strategy to ensure that those who protest will seem more like the awkward squad than valid objectors. It didn't work with the poll-tax because Mr and Mrs Middle-class got hit in the wallet. In this scenario, the attitudes of Little Britain are precisely the problem, and are what are making ID cards possible in the first place.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: more poll tax for Sceptical B*st*rd

"Cops aren't necessarily the good guys, y'know. There's more than a few vicious thugs amongst them, not all at bobby level. As an institution, not just as individuals, they can be very, very nasty people indeed."

I think it's more accurate to say that the good cops are the minority. A tiny minority at that. Think about what the job entails... how is it likely to attract anything other that thugs, bullys, people with a chip on their shoulder or those thirsty for power?

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Passport

One way round the passport business, and to save money, is if you had an Irish Parent or Grandparent is to get an Irish one. They are cheaper, £12 for a child as opposed to £45 and free for over those over 65. I think the adult saving is abour £12.

On another matter I spoke to a Community Police Officer and he used the Stasi argument, "If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear". Surely such morons should be weeded out early on. Then perhaps they are sought out in much the way the man who arrested Anna Frank was employed as a policeman after the war.

Kevin Chaffey

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