back to article Ubuntu goes 3-D

The folks at Canonical have started to prepare their servers for downloads of the latest Ubuntu release - 7.10 or "Gutsy Gibbon." Past Ubuntu releases have been marred by downed servers, as the Umbongo faithful rush to get their fresh code injection. So, this time around, Mark Shuttleworth and crew are doing their outreach …

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Gusty Gibbon?

I keep reading it as Gusty Gibbon, nomatter how hard I try to do otherwise. That's some imagery I could do without.

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Fact checking, please?

'"I believe we're the first (Linux) distribution to deliver that out of the box," Shuttleworth said, during a conference call with reporters.'

But would it kill you to actually check things before printing them verbatim? Beagle's been included in openSUSE since 10.1, and I doubt it was the first distro to do it. So while it might perhaps be true that Ubuntu is the first distro including Tracker specifically (who cares, having software you develop appear in your distro first is not news), it's certainly not the first to include desktop search.

Besides, in typical fashion, it's duplicating work that's already been going on for a long time elsewhere. See Xesam, Nepomuk, Beagle, Strigi, etc etc etc.

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Compiz is new and just out of beta???

That's very strange because I've been using compiz for well over a year and it's certainly not been in beta all that time. Ubuntu will include anything up to compiz 0.6 - That's not 0.1, that's 0.6!!

We've shipped Compiz in Mandriva for at least three major releases now, and Ubuntu has no doubt had it in some form for a while too.

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version 0.6?

0.1 to 0.6 look like beta version numbers to me...

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a tool...

"a tool dubbed AppArmor"

I suppose that's Novell's AppArmor, surely?

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Ahh, Ubuntu.

"Most notably for the client crowd is the production version of Compiz. This software gives Ubuntu some 3-D graphics that by our account surpass anything seen on Windows or Mac OS X. We've run Compiz in beta for several weeks now with no problems and expect users will enjoy the production version."

Mandriva Linux 2008, already released earlier this month (thanks at least for running a story about that, this time) already has Compiz Fusion (0.5.2). Mandriva Linux 2007 Spring, released in April 2007, had Compiz 0.3.6 and Beryl (the latest available 3D desktop stuff at that time). Mandriva Linux 2007, released in October 2006, had Compiz 0.0.13. All three include drak3d, our simple little wizard for enabling and disabling 3D desktop effects.

"On the more practical front, users will find the Tracker tool for indexing files on your system. This software mimics the Spotlight tool available for many moons with Mac OS X and Vista's desktop search. Basically, you're able to find any file on a system with relative ease.

"I believe we're the first (Linux) distribution to deliver that out of the box," Shuttleworth said, during a conference call with reporters."

Mandriva Linux 2008 includes desktop search out of the box via Beagle (using the Kerry KDE frontend). It also includes Tracker - I'm the packager for Tracker - but we don't use that out of the box as it doesn't have much in the way of KDE integration, and it has some technical issues some of our developers aren't happy with. All you need to do to install Tracker is set up repositories and install the package named 'tracker', though.

"The Ubuntu update system has been tweaked to permit more hardware updates over the coming weeks, meaning that it should be just about the most up-to-date Linux OS available."

Oh, yes? We just released the latest versions of the NVIDIA and ATI proprietary drivers (100.14.19 and 8.40.4 - 8.41.7 is a special case, ATI recommends its use only on HD 2xxx cards) for Mandriva Linux 2007 Spring, the release prior to 2008, via the official /non-free/backports repository, and an updated version of our hardware detection engine (ldetect-lst) which will ensure that the latest NVIDIA and ATI cards (except HD 2xxx cards, it'd be too invasive to backport 8.41.7), which didn't even exist when 2007 Spring came out, can be detected and automatically configured to use 'em. See my blog post:

http://www.happyassassin.net/2007/10/15/new-nvidia-ati-driver-backports-for-2007-spring/

By comparison, Ubuntu appears to be still on ATI 8.37.6 even in the latest RC of Gutsy. (At least they got NVIDIA up to date). So...we *already have* a working backports system which we've *already used* to update the hardware support of our *previous* release. They're *promising* some kind of system for their *upcoming* release which already appears to be shipping with outdated drivers.

And, yeah, we've got easy printer support, RandR 1.2 with a patched KrandR to provide graphical configuration (that's what he's banging on about projectors, and what I guess he didn't mention is it's only any use on Intel graphics cards), NTFS write support, AppArmor, a tickless kernel, Python 2.5 and GCC 4.2 (and a pre-release of 4.3 as an optional extra).

I think OpenSUSE 10.3, also released earlier this month, has a bunch of the same features, though I wouldn't know which in detail.

Once again, Ubuntu is showing up to the party late and trying to make up for it by being the loudest person in the room...

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Fast checking and Compiz

Guys (Pooper and Colin), if you are gonna dis the reg, get yer facts right.

Desktops searches have indeed been part of many linux distros for many years. But... Tracker is new, and Shuttleworth only mentions he believes they are the first to deliver Tracker out of the box... Tracker...

Yes, reporters are supposed to report verbatum. That is their Job. Anything else become news "invention" and not reporting. Do we really want the reg to degrade to the level of the mainstream press?

I don't. In fact the mainstream press would do well to return to the model of news reporting and not news making themselves.

Now about Compiz. Compiz had had many changes because it was forked, then reintegrated over the last year or so. This is the first COMPIZ (in post merge form) release for all distros (including Mandriva). It is not the first release of a 3D desktop for Linux. Not even close, but its the first one that works well and looks great.

Look these things up boys (or pay attention), and then you wont look foolish.

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would it kill you to check

Your facts about Compiz They have been using it for a year at least oops someone already pointed that out but it is a little sloppy of you.I would also like to know what makes you think Mark Shuttleworth tortures animals I know your waiting for shaggy sheep or sexy swine but you barnyard casanovas have to wait.

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(Written by Reg staff)

Re: would it kill you to check

To All the Compiz Haters,

Hmm, thought I made it clear that we've been trying Compiz for awhile now as well. The beta remark was simply meant to indicate that Canonical has not included Compiz as a default option with a proper release. Even Mark called it a beta when he's talked to me, I'm pretty sure.

AV

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Gates Halo

wow

so...I have a pretty desktop, and it'll run slower while indexing files. I bet I STILL can't just connect to my WPA wireless though FFS.

I like Linux, I do, but the developers need to stop rushing for the "me-too" glitz and code things that are needed to take over the world. This is the simple truth of Microsoft's success, the programmers are paid, and sometimes work on boring stuff whether they want to or not. OSS programmers work on stuff they like so the useful stuff can take longer.

I realise Linux can connect to WPA, but there's no easy GUI way yet :o(

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X11 != Linux

"It [Compiz] adds a contemporary feel to the often 1990s looking Linux desktop"

OK, I'm willing to ignore the references to Linux instead of GNU/Linux (I don't feel quite as strongly about that as RMS), but I can't ignore this.

Compiz is an X11 window manager. It runs on any Unix like operating system that "run an X Server that provides the GLX_EXT_texture_from_pixmap extension" (quoted from http://wiki.compiz-fusion.org/FAQ). GNU/Linux just happens to be the (currently) most popular such operating system.

So, to summarise, that sentence should have read: "Compiz adds a contemporary feel to the often 1990s looking X11 desktop".

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New facilities?

As others have pointed out, file indexing is nothing new:

- Beagle has been in Fedora since at least release 5 and is integrated with the Nautilus file manager

- 'locate' was in Redhat Linux from well before Fedora. OK, its a command line utility but adding a graphical wrapper to it is scarcely rocket science.

Apparmor sounds suspiciously like SELinux to me - and *that* has been in Fedora since Fedora Core 2, when kernel 2.6 became standard. I think Apparmor has been part of Debian about as long as SELinux has been part of RedHat distros

I'm sure Ubuntu is very nice (its improved graphics sounds like nice eye candy and might even benefit those running FlightGear) but they really shouldn't claim that Tracker or Apparmor are new and your reporter should also know that they already available elsewhere.

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Compiz

Ashlee, I don't really mind the way you wrote about Compiz. It's just worth pointing out how Mark is carefully futzing the issues in the way he presents them in order to try and make it look as much as possible like Ubuntu is doing something new and innovative - or at least is not heavily behind other distributions.

However, it is a bit annoying that you don't mention at *all* that Ubuntu is nowhere near being the first to include *any* of this stuff. I'm sure if Microsoft were trumpeting things that other people had done first in a new release, you'd add a snide side note to that effect, that's why we love the Reg. :) Why doesn't Ubuntu merit this treatment?

On Tracker, it's impossible to tell from the way the article is written whether Mark claimed that Ubuntu was the first to deliver *desktop search*, or whether it was the first to deliver *Tracker*. As he is a smart bloke, I'll assume he does at least know that SUSE has been including Beagle for ages, even if he didn't know Mandriva's done it before, so I will assume he didn't actually claim that Ubuntu was the first to deliver desktop search. However, as he is also a consummate publicist, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he was careful to arrange his quote so that - when soundbitten - it could give that *impression*. Which is the case here. From the way this article is written, the interpretations "Ubuntu is the first to deliver desktop search out of the box" and "Ubuntu is the first to deliver Tracker out of the box" are equally valid and it is impossible to know which of the two Mark was claiming. I'm sure he's not displeased that it reads this way. :)

Shad, you look a bit silly telling Colin to 'look things up'. His was instrumental in getting Compiz included in Mandriva Linux 2007, and he is still one of the main contributors working on 3D desktop packaging in Mandriva.

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@wow

Gusty does now include a graphical WPA connection utility. It's as easy as selecting your network and popping in the key.

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Joke

What's next?

After Hardy Heron, may we expect Idiotic Iguana? Silly monikers indeed...

M

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@wow, 2

...and Mandriva has been able to graphically configure WPA connections since, um, 2005 if I remember correctly.

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@Adam W, etc.

...and MY Dad's bigger than YOUR Dad!

Come on guys, there are plenty Linux distros out there that due a damn fine job. If you like Ubuntu, use Ubuntu. If you like Mandriva, use Mandriva. This is starting to sound like the PC v Mac arguments, or even SNES v Megadrive.

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(Written by Reg staff)

Re: Compiz

Adam,

You are totally correct about Canonical/Ubuntu deserving the same treatment as a MS or Apple. I certainly should have pointed out that they're behind in those areas there they're behind. I have been away from the Linux world for quite awhile and only returned to using the OS over the past few weeks. As a result, I'm far more familiar with Ubuntu - the distro I ended up using - than any others. (Last time, I was on Red Hat circa 2002.) Thanks to your prodding, I will be loading up some other versions of Linux - Fedora, Mandriva and perhaps some SuSE - in VMs, if nothing else and giving them a whirl.

Given the rather diverse nature of the distros, it's tough to keep up with every bit and bob in the OSes. Still, I'll try and do a better job. The upshot seems to be that Ubuntu needs to be held accountable for what it claims rather than giving the hippies a free ride. I'm all for making sure that gets done.

AV

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@wow

> I realise Linux can connect to WPA, but there's no easy GUI way yet :o(

Funny - I've been connecting to WPA networks with my laptop using the Network Manager GUI since Dapper - and a darn sight easier and more reliably than with most Windows PCs. When I'm diagnosing problems with a customer's wireless network the first thing I do is try to connect up with my Linux laptop because "it just works".

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Who Cares ?

Most of the above chatter simply illustrates, for me, why Linux will struggle to enter the home and displace MS.

Me at PC World: I want a computer

Salesman:Certainly sir, heres a nice Dell, what OS would you like on it ? Windows or Linux ?

Me: Err Linux ?

Salesman: Certainly sir, Red Hat, Ubuntu, Mandriva... (100 names later) ? And which grapical front end to go with it?

Me: Sod it, cripple it with Vista

And until all the Nux geeks can stop bitching it will remain that way for Joe Public. In the meantime, good luck Ubuntu and I look forward to a really successful launch of Stoned Stoat :)

(oh I have a TM on that, just in case LOL)

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@Adam Williamson

Hi Adam

You're right to point out the inaccuracies in the article, and I've been grateful for your help on the forums when I was a regular Mandrake/Mandriva user. However, I'm hearing a touch of sour grapes here. Ubuntu's success isn't entirely down to hype - I switched to Ubuntu after many years as a Mandriva user because (for me at least) it met my needs better. I'm not going to go into all the reasons here and now - I'm not trying to put down Mandriva, which I still respect, and different distros will suit different people better - but for me, Ubuntu/Kubuntu currently meets my needs better than Mandriva (or any other OS I've tried to date) does.

Still, I agree that Ubuntu is hyped too much - it's not perfect, and the other distros also have their strengths.

Andy B

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@Andy

It's not about sour grapes. I don't mind at all a fair comparison between Mandriva and Ubuntu, and if you've made one and decided Ubuntu's better for you, good for you. What we (other distros in general) do not like is when general tech sites - whose readership often doesn't even *know* about other distros - report on Ubuntu as if it were the only game in town, and it were actually directly responsible for all the stuff it's actually just packaging from other projects (and that other distros frequently got there first). Given that my continued ability to, you know, eat depends on people knowing that Ubuntu is *not* in fact the only game in town, I make no apologies for attempting to draw attention to this fact in important venues such as The Reg :)

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re: Who Cares?

Graham: I don't!

I know exactly where you are coming from.

I've tried Linux every year or so since the mid 90's, and to me it seems that the whole damn OS is STILL in beta. Sometimes alpha.

Now, come on, let's get real here - NOTHING works properly. Ever. Every signle program is missing some feature, be it compatability, stability, usability, a UI that doesn't look like angry fruit salad. Apps are full of control panels that have a metric shitload of options, seemingly laid out by the same monkeys who are writing Hamlet.

You STILL need to be good with a command line (hey - I cut my teeth on Solaris 1, using Eagle) and have to know arcane command line switches that are more like D&D stats than useful options.

I install it, look at it, try to find a use for it, try to install Windows in WINE (whine?) so I can run my CAD apps that will NEVER be written for Linux, and find out, AGAIN, that Linux is still a toy. Sure, you might run some database crud on it, you might put a web server on it, but thats what I pay other people to do these days. I want to design buildings - "Linux says noooooooo...."

Bloody hell, I'd rather use a MAC than Linux, that's how crap it is.

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beta version numbers

It never ceases to amaze me that most people cant grasp the idea that version 0.x is in fact a beta pre-release .. I've even had people wondering why an 0.0.x version is still alpha quality ... bah .. lusers, who'd ave em I ask you?

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@Adrian Esdaile

If you haven't tried a distro in the last year or two they've made quite an improvement recently. I'd say even between Ubuntu 6.06.1 (from last year) and 7.04, the difference is huge. Let alone 7.10.

"Now, come on, let's get real here - NOTHING works properly. Ever. Every signle program is missing some feature, be it compatability, stability, usability, a UI that doesn't look like angry fruit salad. Apps are full of control panels that have a metric shitload of options, seemingly laid out by the same monkeys who are writing Hamlet."

Bullllllllllshit. I wouldn't review any OS and say *nothing* works right, even Windows. And again newer distros (at least Ubuntu for sure but I think others as well) have improved a lot on the metric craploads of random control panels.. which certainly was true at least. I know with an older version of KDE I used to have a control center, control panel, and settings menu. Who knows what was where? Even with my gentoo install this appears to have been pared down to a more reasonable number of menus at some point.

"You STILL need to be good with a command line (hey - I cut my teeth on Solaris 1, using Eagle) and have to know arcane command line switches that are more like D&D stats than useful options."

I've tried using Ubuntu just with strictly the GUI. Basically I've been able to do all I want strictly via GUI, other than the odd tweak on some system or other. When I've needed to do that, it's more a matter of finding a suggestion in the ubuntu forum and typing in what they say at a command line, rather than having to come up with your own command line to do what you need. Once you get to that point, I think it's actually easier to type (or even cut and paste) a command line than to try to click through a bunch of menus following some forum directions.

"I install it, look at it, try to find a use for it, try to install Windows in WINE (whine?) so I can run my CAD apps that will NEVER be written for Linux, and find out, AGAIN, that Linux is still a toy."

By that logic any OS but Windows is a toy because it can't run some Windows apps you want. Hell by your definition, newer Windows versions are a toy for not running apps for older Windows versions (see 64-bit Windows and Vista incompatibilities with quite a few apps.) But, yeah, if you've got Windows apps you need and they don't run under Wine, that's a reasonably good reason to run Windows. I think wine would be a good project for someone (Novell, even perhaps Canonical) to fund, having ~100% Windows compatibility instead of ~90% would really be a blow against Microsoft.

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@Hein@Ashley

Hein Kruger,

thanks for the pointer. Ashlee has a tendency for superficial reporting, as we all know.

Actually, I run 0.52 out of the box reasonably well on my pure Solaris Nevada (nv70). On a Sempron 2600, with a Geforce4 MX420.

Whatever, don't call it a "Linux Desktop", will you !?

And in the improbable case of another Solaris user, here is the link to download the installer (for x86):

http://blogs.sun.com/erwann/

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@Adrian Esdaile

If you're trying to install Windows into Wine, then it's no wonder you're having problems. Maybe if you got a clue about what you were doing, then we wouldn't have to suffer your ill informed rants here.

Oh, and you also need to learn the difference between an operating system and a distribution.

@ Graham Lockley

I suppose you go into the supermarket and expect to buy nothing but porridge for breakfast too. Idiot. Still, it saves you having to think I suppose, just be a happy consumer.

Personally, the longer uneducated people like you two stay away from alternative OS's, the better.

And yes, I realise that this is a stereotypical linux users response, but, get this - you are responsible for your own intelligence. Don't expect people to rush to the aid of wilfully ignorant lusers.

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Pardon me for butting in...

I'm almost deterred from adding my sixpen'orth because this particular comments section seems to be a flamewar between people who know each other.

So I'll restrict myself to saying that of all the distros I've tried (half-a-dozen over about six years) I find Ubuntu by far the most convivial. For me at least, virtually everything *does* just work. Ubuntu is the best candidate to popularise Linux to the world at large IMO.

I don't much like Windows although I have to use either W2K SP4 or XP Pro SP2 most days (partly because neither PhotoShop nor InDesign are ported to 'nix; partly because my clients use MS Office apps and OO is *not* fully compatible yet).

My dislike is partly prejudice - I don't like Microsoft on principle. But it's also practical. Only a fool would claim Windows isn't beset by a lot of security issues and it isn't particularly stable. And, especially in the case of Vista, Windows is a bloated, sluggish resource hog.

But for 'nix fanboys to claim Windows 'doesn't work' is self-evident bollocks. It's also counter-productive - telling people your preference in software is wonderful but their choice reveals stupidity and ignorance doesn't win hearts and minds.

I'm looking forward to Gutless Gibbon (or whatever it's called) and I expect to see improvements and enhancements. That's more than I've ever said about a Windows release.

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Snail deskop search

Desktop search (Beagle) is THE FIRST things to uninstall, because during indexing it lays machines to its knees.

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Heart

Linux in the non-techie world

I know a lot of you don't want to hear it but in the non-techie world the distro confusion is at last going away. For out there in the world of normal people, Ubuntu *is* Linux, because it has become comparatively well-known, has marketing, and is comparatively "finished" - ie it works out of the box and keeps on working.

On the bright side, all that stuff about "Would madam like Windows, or one of 100 flavours of Linux?" isn't going to happen, and "Would madam like Windows, or Linux?" just might. Three cheers for that.

On the down side, yes, it's taking bread from the mouths of a few techies involved in other distros. But rather than crowing that your distro had some video driver before Ubuntu, why not unite, and try to help the Ubuntu project instead, since in the real world "Ubuntu IS Linux"?

After all:

> I've tried using Ubuntu just with strictly the GUI. Basically I've been able to do all I want strictly via GUI, other than the odd tweak on some system or other. When I've needed to do that, it's more a matter of finding a suggestion in the ubuntu forum and typing in what they say at a command line...

ie in other words it isn't *quite* finished. Can't you give them a hand until it is?

Oh but PS:

> Personally, the longer uneducated people like you two stay away from alternative OS's, the better.

> And yes, I realise that this is a stereotypical linux users response, but, get this - you are responsible for your own intelligence. Don't expect people to rush to the aid of wilfully ignorant lusers.

Oooh. Not you though ;-)

Nikos

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Forget Alliteration ...

... it should have been "Funky"

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@Alan

'Don't expect people to rush to the aid of wilfully ignorant lusers'

many years ago I was more than happy to spend hours tinkering with a system to find out what it could do and how I could improve it, laughing all the time at people who struggled to use Win3.1 and couldn't be bothered to learn how to do things. Now I have far more important and interesting things to do with my time. I don't want to have to spend hours trawling forums for help and editing this file or the other to make something work. I want something that works out of the box and in an awful lot of cases linux doesn't. That doesn't mean I am not capable of getting it working but why should I waste my time bothering? If the programmers wanted to make more of an impact on the desktop they would make it far easier to install, configure and maintain and not expect that everyone has a degree in computer science. The problem with most projects like this is on the whole they rely on uni students and those still living at home age 40 to do the coding as they are the only people who have the time to spend hours working on it without worrying who is going to pay them for it as they are still doing it for the joy of getting something to work. Once you pass that stage in your life spending 50+ hours working for no reward isn't as attractive. Spending 3 hours on the forums trying to make my mouse work in a virtual machine with ubuntu is 3 hours away from my kids, or the pub with mates, or the cinema or any one thing you care to mention that you enjoy doing.

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@Graham Lockley

Was that the Starter, Home Basic, Ultimate, Business or Enterprise version that you wanted?

@Adrian Esdaile: How sad for you. My mother now uses Ubuntu having used Macs and PCs for years at work. She likes it 'because it just works'. Maybe you should get some remedial computer lessons.

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@Alan

"Personally, the longer uneducated people like you two stay away from alternative OS's, the better."

And this is the attitude which will forever hold Linux back.

Until Linux is useable for "uneducated people" then it will never be a challenge to anyone else. It will forever be a minority product for techies alone.

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Modern day PCs

@Graham Lockley

PC retailers would only ship one flavour of *nix pre-installed. If they give you a choice they will go broke. Plain and simple. By all means sell COTS boxes, but don't install.

@'But XXX had it first'

Big deal. I read an article on the Beeb yesterday on what made books sell.

10 things which makes technology sell.

1) Advertisement

2) People believing it will put them 'above the Jones' '

3) Advertisement

4) Believing everyone else is using it.

5) Advertisement

6) Well, you get the idea....

7) Advertisement

8) ...Random lying key-phrases.

9) You can't live with out

10) You want to buy

If people don't hype a technology product the flock of sheep (new unit for XX average consumers, 1 flock?) just won't be interested. So, just like MS lie through thier teeth about what Vista brings (XP with glitz...) every distro producer should - to some extent. Honesty doesn't win this game.

GNU/Linux doesn't support current CAD software. True, it's a shame. So for designing a house with your current software won't work. Mind you, winXP is absolutely useless unstable twoddle. None of my software compiled for *nix will run on it.

People work on projects that interest them. When they have time. When they don't have time they are typically holding down a full time job.

I can also ensure you that MUCH MORE work is going on on the boring stuff than on the glitz. It's just that people don't brag about it.

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Give me a break

Alan: Please don't try to categorise people as consumerist sheep because they happen to use Windows and disagree with your choice of OS. Your list of assumptions is crass and thoughtless and you display all the characteristics of a fundamentalist. You could just as easily be categorised as another thoughtless Linux user and in this instance the sheep analogy is probably more apt; the process is reductive and cliché ridden. As he doesn't conform to your world-view he's already "clueless," "ill-informed" but Graham is an "idiot" and they're both "wilfully ignorant lusers."

I mean you're not seriously trying to play the anti-corporate card here, are you? You aren't seriously trying to suggest that you're one of the enlightened, conscientious, culture-jamming, establishment destroying heroes are you? I take it then you don't have Sky telly, don't shop at supermarkets, don't watch corporate media, read corporate newspapers that you really have found the path of righteousness that separates you from the rest of us? Do you really think that using a non-Windows OS really separates you from the caricatured sheep people? Do you really think the Establishment is threatened by you? They're just laughing at your small mindedness and your conformity because you're an authoritarian too, you just want people to do what they're told as well. It's this kind of fundamentalist view of the world is more of a threat to our freedoms that a million Microsoft's.

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@Alan

It's responses like yours that keep Linux out of the mainstream.

Mass market consumers have a hard enough time knowing what version of Windows they are running (let alone edition). When it comes to Linux consumers need to know the distro, the version. the edition and possibly the X11 system too. Compared to just 'Windows XP Home' or 'Windows Vista Home Premium' there's a suprising difference.

It's ignorance, but that's just the way things work. I can wire a plug, but I don't know how to wire a house. I can change the oil in my car, but I can't explain how a combustion engine works. We live in a world of ignorance, and this is a key reason why Windows is so popular - it's pretty simple when it comes to buying it and using it.

Comments like "the longer uneducated people like you two stay away from alternative OS's" shows that whilst Linux is picking up speed, there is still very much a cult / geeky aura with it that needs to be addressed before it will be truly ready for the mainstream.

Thank god for projects like Ubuntu which aim to get rid of your archaic and short-sighted stance on Linux for the masses.

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Mandriva madness

@Adam Williamson

Fair enough regarding early inclusion of Compiz etc in Mandriva.

But anybody who uses Mandriva is either mad or French, or quite possibly both.

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@Alan

Ahh. And here we have the main reason why Linux still isn't the major desktop O/S.

You are right - a stereotypical Linux users response. And offensive with it. No change there for anyone who has asked advice on a Linux forum. It's not the ignorant users that are the problem - Ignorant users can still use windows (mostly). They can't use Linux (and although its getting better, I still wouldn't put it on my parents PC). And that is Linux's problem - not the users.

And I use Ubuntu, Suse and embedded Linux every day at work and have Ubuntu at home....

.

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linux burns while distros fiddle

let me start by saying i'm a linux user, and a nix user generally for 18 years... and i STILL think that linux is not suitable to give to "bloke on the street"

i'd love to let bloke on the street use it, in fact i've tried...

but as stated above there are times when you have to use a command line, on every distro i've tried... i'm not scared of a command line, no... but the people i want to recommend it to are... but they're not STUPID... they're expecting not to have to mess around....

Alan above seems to suggest that computers are an elite tool only for those with hacker backgrounds... and this is certainly the worst aspect of linux community - always saying "well it doesn't take much intelligence to use xyz command line tool to hack the /etc/x11 config to enable 24bit on your nvidia fx..."

no, it doesn't take much intelligence, it takes a lot of wasted time and effort - not for me - but for a person that has no interest in such things...

linux distros should support other distro releases, not bitch about which is better... it was said above that it's like a pc mac fight... it's even worse than that... at least a pc-mac fight has a vague reason - fighting between linux distros is worse than the analogy of two bald men fighting over a comb...

i continue, avidly, to be a linux user, and whoopee, i like ubuntu... but would i recommend linux to a non-techie - nope, nope and nope.... well... not yet... i tried last year with a couple of distros and the user said to me "how do i get xyz" ... and i had to reply... "erm, it's a little tricky, you have to do this, [command shell tapping] then this, then this" ... user replies "erm, i think i want windows"

and i totally understood his point...

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Anonymous Coward

@Graham Lockley

Perhaps if you go into a decent PC shop where staff know a little about what they are talking about (clearly this rules out PCWorld) then you would have

"I want a computer"

"Certainly sir, heres a nice Dell, what OS would you like on it ? Windows or Linux?

"What are the differences?

"Well Windows does x1, y1, z1, but has problems in x2, y2, z2. Linux does x3, y3, z3, d3, e3, f3, and has problems with g3, h3, i3"

"Well I'll have Linux"

"What distribution RedHat, Mandriva, UBuntu ?"

"What are the differences?"

"Well they all have about the same functionality, but Mandriva is maybe best at a, b, c, RedHat is maybe best at d, e, and UBuntu is maybe best at f, g"

"Ok, I'll try Mandriva".

How hard is that ? Ok, may be easier for you to go down your local PCWorld and leave your brain at home, just like their staff, but then when you get back home from there with your Vista crippleware you only have yourself to blame. Alternatively you ask questions, and you have to think. You could easily gather this information by buying a decent PC magazine who all review Linux distros. Too hard for you? Then don't whine about Linux distros

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Why can't we all just... get along?

Some people have to use Windows, either because their jobs require it, or because they don't feel confident enough to try something unfamiliar.

Some people prefer Macs. Their reasons are their own, but I can certainly understand their viewpoint.

Others choose to use GNU/Linux/BSD/Unix/Solaris/Whatever, and that's okay as well.

If someone's decided to give linux* a go, then it makes sense for them to cut their teeth on a distro which is simple to install and use, and for that I'd have no hesitation in recommending Ubuntu. It really does "just work" (by which I mean that it simply works, not that it barely works) and it's really very easy for novices to pick up and run with. It also acts as quite a good ambassador for the *nix fraternity, as the bells and whistles which it allows even a four-year-old box to show off can impress even the most ardent Win/Mac fan.

At the same time, there are other distros which are considerably "better" for other purposes; it's a big market, and every niche and corner seems to be covered pretty well. I expect that people who "learn" *nix through Ubuntu will be more confident trying other distros from the safety of their new comfort zone. My thirteen-year-old son, who only recently started using Ubuntu in anger, has since been experimenting with Solaris, Mandriva and... erm... some other whose name escapes me at present. (You'll have to forgive me; I fall into the first category I listed above; I'm forced to use Windows primarily, because of the nature of my work.) - Okay, he's unlikely to be using these other distros seriously (and he's mostly looking for other "cool" stuff) but the point is he's _looking_...

Hey, at the end of the day we're all geeks, aren't we? Shouldn't we be uniting against our common enemy or something?

Uh... Medja whores, eh? Bunch of cunts.

*'Cos GNU/Linux, while technically correct, is more of a handful to type. Sorry.

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Alert

But will it include...

...*DOCUMENTATION*

Other operating systems have managed to include this feature for quite awhile... I wonder when Ubuntu will catch up and sort this out. Or just continue relying on shoddy upstream documentation and hundreds of duplicated wiki articles and forum how-tos as they have been doing.

I nearly made the switch to OpenSUSE after my growing frustration at the lack of proper, official documentation. But then I plugged in my wireless USB stick and nothing happened...

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Stop

@Alan

You're right, that is a stereotypical linux snob response. Let's face it - until the Linux community can settle on getting one or two distros working well enough so that the general public out there can install it with ease and confidence, MS is going to rule the roost. Ordinary users want a machine that is familiar, stable and simple. MS, for the most part, panders to this market. Until Linux geeks like you get it together and realise that you should be playing to this market and not slapping it down with trite comments, MS will be laughing all the way to the bank.

Surely we should be united against the common enemy and no, I don't mean the Judean People's Front.

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Help yourself

Who cares what comes with which distro ? You can have anything you want. All you need to know, is how to type ./configure and make.

. . . (y)hfref, jub arrqf gurz ?

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Flashy 3-D graphics cause global warming

"[Compiz] adds a contemporary feel to the often 1990s looking Linux desktop"

I use Linux precisely because it *doesn't* commandeer 90% of my machine's RAM and CPU capacity simply to render the desktop.

Call me old-fashioned, but my first reaction to flashy 3-D graphics and animation effects is not "Woo! Shiny! I want one!". I'm more likely to think that those CPU cycles could be put to better use.

And since CPU cycles consume energy, I'd even go so far as to argue that flashy desktop graphics contribute to global warming.

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@Alan

>>And yes, I realise that this is a stereotypical linux users response

Jeepers mate, you ain't wrong. It just stuns me how much this sort of response keeps small Linux distros not just a minority cleeks, but utterly irrelevant ones.

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@Graham Lockley

I both agree and disagree with you - yes the arguing between different desktop / distro fans will stop Linux becoming mainstream - however, the fact that there are different distros and desktops to choose from is the strength of Linux on the desktop.... If you don't like the XP/Vista/MAC desktop, your pretty much stuck with it (bar a couple of creature comfort changes) - whereas Linux, you have the option to change and choose.

Linux fans just need to agree to disagree and then move forward to try and help each other.

Yes, there are a few things that don't work in Ubuntu, but there are more than a few things that don't work in Windows, and at least Ubuntu are happy to hold their hands up and try and fix/address it (hell, they even don't mind if you fix it yourself and tell them about it).

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Unhappy

my mails are not openning

HI

I've been trying to open my emailzz for sometimes now but they not opening.I can log in on it but the problem start when I want to read it I SELECT on it but it wont open up,Itry to delete but it's can not delete this thing it's frustrate me so much and I'm using UBUNTU 6.0.6 LTS

Any one please help me

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Silver badge
Stop

This shows why windows is still way, way ahead

Here's comes a version tha offers a desktop that doesn't look like an Amiga or Atari, adds some features and the dumb asses still do the my version is better than yours.

FFS grow up and then the normal people may actually bother looking at Linux. I'm pretty technical, but I can't assed to load Unbongo, to find that xyz is better in Top Hat but that is missing a feature in Completepiss.

This is way people don't migrate. get together, work together and you may, just may get somewhere outside of nerdland

Vista is suffering this problem, do I buy Home, Home Basic, Pro, Semi pro, Super duper shit or whatever?

KISS

Keep it simple, stoopid.

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