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back to article Cheap PS3 won't help Blu-ray, claim HD DVD backers

Sony's plan to cut the price of the PlayStation 3 in Europe will have "minimal" impact on the adoption of next-generation optical disc formats, the group promoting HD DVD over here has claimed. The European HD DVD Promotional Group (EHPG) stuck to its argument that sales of dedicated media players will determine whether HD DVD …

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Joke

How about this ...

HD DVD would be certain to win if every home in Europe was given a free Blu-Ray player ... That way the number of disks purchased per player would be absolutely fractional ... HD players would be flying off the shelves!

Oh. Wait.

Maybe the people in the publicity group should start sniffing the drinks other people are handing them ...

(And a big "Thank You" for the Joke Alert icon ... just in case it's not clear. How about a "Fe" Icon for Irony? :-p)

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This post has been deleted by a moderator

MS HD-DVD Drive

"Curiously, the EHPG is nonetheless quite happy to include Microsoft's HD DVD add-on for the Xbox 360 games console in the debate, so we can only hope the organisation is praying the software giant chooses not to release a second-generation 360 with an HD DVD drive built in."

I suppose that the difference is that whoever decides to buy the HD-DVD addon for the XBox 360 is only going to use it as a HD-DVD player being as no software is going to be released on HD-DVD for the XBox. However, with the PS3 you get a Blu Ray drive whether you want to use it as a Blu Ray movie player or not.

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Toshiba,Microsoft,DVD-Forum are in desperate mode now....

... they don't know what to do at this point to force the adoption of the inferior HD-DVD optical disc format that the majority of users just don't want.

Expect Blu-Ray SATA writers for PCs to drop in price also, 25GB BD discs can already be bought for less than $6.00 a piece from many sellers...

The PS3 40GB even with the lack of PS2 compatibility will surely sell at least 1.5-2.5million units in the next couple months and I bet with an average of 2 or 3 extra BD movies bought with it.

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Skew the stats, prove anything

"If you exclude all HD-DVD purchases, then blu-ray is the only next gen movie format!"

Part of the reason I bought a PS3 was for blu-ray on my HD plasma. I'm not about to go out and buy a standalone blu-ray player when I have a blu-ray machine already, and one which is of very high quality and is constantly being kept up to date through firmware updates.

There is a percentage of PS3 owners who do not bother with blu-ray, but there is also a percentage who do. I do not know what that percentage is, but unlike the HD-DVD backers, I admit that it exists. However, when it comes for the first group of PS3 owners (who incidentally are going to increase in numbers quite dramatically over Christmas with the price cuts) to look at high definition movies, let's say in one year, two years, do we think that they will either a) use the PS3 sat under the TV for free, or b) go out and choose between a standalone blu-ray or HD-DVD player?*

*This argument is based on the assumption that the high definition movie market will be in a similar state to now in two years, it may well be that the decision doesn't need to be made because one format has already won.

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Not so unusual...

... that they included the add-on drive for the XB360 because it is entirely that, an add-on. People who buy this add-on drive definitely want it to watch movies, as it is otherwise not required to play games. They cannot say that the Blu-Ray drive included in the PS3 will be definitely used to watch movies however, so it makes sense.

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Anonymous Coward

The end of HD DVD

Haha - How will millions of extra players out there not help Blu-ray? They are just putting their heads in the sand as they realise that the writings on the wall for HD-DVD

The PS 3 price cut will probably double sales as there are millions of people out there who have been waiting for the price to drop.

If Sony can sell a PS3 with BR plus a cell processor etc for under £ 300, I would expect to see standalone BR players on the market soon for under £ 200.

The BR disc sales are already well ahead of HD-DVD so pretty soon the difference will be so great the format war will be over.

Personally I think that the discs are still too pricey at the moment, so I just rent all my HD movies instead

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Dead Vulture

Sales of discs not drives...?

Surely the real outcome should be based on sale of discs?

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PS3 MUST be seen as a standalone Blu-Ray device

To remove the PS3 from any next generation DVD sales list because it is multi-functional, is blatantly stupid. Being a PS3 owner myself, I have bought 4 Blu-Ray movies in the last 6 months. When I enter a shop to buy new titles, I'll stop at the Blu-Ray shelve first. If the price is too high, I'll get the normal DVD, else take the Blu-Ray format. I'm sure at least 75% of other PS3 owners did the same. The Blu-Ray movie sales will increase with prices coming down and more titles being converted to this format.

Last point, I'm surely not going to buy a secondary device if I already have a device capable of doing the same functions, thus your stats are incorrect!

Regards

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Cheap PS3's won't help HD DVD either

While they are right, your uneducated consumer who knows about as much of astrophysics as HD discs won't buy a PS3 for movies. However, a cheap PS3 will cause educated consumers who otherwise couldn't afford a Blu-Ray player to jump in. Really, the thing that will kill Blu-Ray, if anything, is the accursed BD+, which is already causing problems en masse. People just want to push play, and in the process of doing that the movie doesn't work, they won't be happy and word will spread quick.

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Anonymous Coward

Title

still having problems creating blueray discs that will play in any if all brands of player but have no problem creating hd dvds for clients that work in all players.

Compatibility seems to be an issue.

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@ Nick

"I have a blu-ray machine already, and one which is of very high quality and is constantly being kept up to date through firmware updates."

I don't suppose you've considered that "kept up to date" also means "the next generation of software designed to prevent me using my Blu-Ray player as I wish will be installed whether I like it or not."

Mind you, I'm not an HD-DVD advocate, either. There's no compelling contenet in either format, and my plain-vanilla DVD player works just fine - without new Technology Users' Rights Denial Systems (aka TURDS aka DRM) being installed secretly and without my consent.

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Ray

Not American? Better off with region free and superior codec using HD-DVD

[quote]Joerg • Monday 8th October 2007 10:25 GMT said:

... they don't know what to do at this point to force the adoption of the inferior HD-DVD optical disc format that the majority of users just don't want.[/quote]

You may think HD-DVD format is inferior simply because it holds less data, the movie 300 in full 1080p with dts sound untouched video was only 10.2GB.

HD-DVD is cheaper, has no region coding, has no mandatory encryption for movies (so documentary makers don't have to cough up 5000 usd for an encryption key per title but with BluRay they do) and is more stable since it lacks BD+.. The less DRM crap the more chance that scratched disc will still play (oh and since its a hot item: less DRM saves the envirement, 75% of the used cpu power when decoding HD streams is decryption ;-) ).

You want to help the world add more DRM crap (that YOU pay for) to the living room? Keep buying BluRay mate (they still use inferior MPG2 codec on their discs? looks that way watching 'The Last Starfighter'..)

I doubt the kids buying the PS3 have enough money to buy the games AND the movies anyway. The older people with more cash to spend will rather buy a standalone and unlike BluRay, HD-DVD standard is fully operational and working.

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Gates Horns

In the end it really doesn't matter, better tech always wins out...

I believe that in the end both formats are going to kill each other off. This reminds me of the next gen CD format war, remember Super CD and DVD-Audio. Which of these two formats won, some might say DVD-Audio, but in reality the iPod or mp3 won. In other words downloadable music, both legal and otherwise, won over shrink-wrap media. We as a society are migrating away from retail and towards online. Video-On-Demand, IPTV, P2P and a host of other emerging new technologies will replace next gen DVD and relagate them "old school" in a similar way. BluRay may gain the upper hand in market share, just as DVD-Audio may have, but this a diminishing market, honestly who actually buys DVD-Audio discs. Its like these companies are jockeying for the best deck chairs onboard the USS Titanic, it simply doesn't matter anymore. BluRay and HD-DVD are quickly becoming obsolete and out of touch with the times. The future is online not off.

One other consideration is the recording aspect of BluRay and HD-DVD. As someone mentioned in another post the movie 300 at full 1080p resolution was only 10.2 GB. That would fit easly on either BluRay or HD-DVD, no need for the extra space. Movie sizes I've seen at their very largest are only in the 20 GB range, most coming in around the low 20's or high teens. But my point is personal recording, and their you can never have too much space. If I were to chose one format over another, recording capacity would be an important factor. BluRay's 50 GB capacity is obviously better than HD-DVDs 30 GB, but this too may be going "old school" as well. A new technology is emerging called Holographic Versatile Disc or HVD. These new discs are an order of magnitude larger in capacity than either BluRay or HD-DVD ranging in size from 300 GB to 1.6 TB. The future recording format to replace existing recordable DVDs will likely come from this technology, BluRay and HD-DVD are mearly a stop-gap measure along the way for those who can't wait. Does anyone remember the format war between LS-120 and ZIP, the high capacity PC drives to replace floppy back in the day. Who won out in the end, neither. Recordable CDs eventually replaced floppys. LS-120 and ZIP were really only a stop-gap for the recordable CD and later DVD. In this sense history is repeating itself and the technology has come full circle. And now here we are today debating which format is better, which one will win, one only needs to look at the recent past to see the near future.

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If the PS3 had HD-DVD instead of Blu Ray I would buy one.

I do like the idea of a cheaped PS3 as a game machine, however I absolutelly don't like Blu-ray as an HD disc format.

To me HD DVD is far supperior: the format is more stable (apparently a lot of blu-ray players have issue with newer titles), it is much cheaper to produce (so more content from small publishers), and in the shop next door there are more HD-DVDs availlable that Blu Ray (and almost all the ones that interest me are on HD-DVD).

The only "advantage" of blu-ray is that it holds more per disc, but since you can press several HD-DVD discs for the price of one Blu-Ray the point is rather moot.

I would buy an Xbox360 but I don'ty like the fact I have to pay for online play with Microsoft...

I think I'll keep my Wii for now and maybe buy and HD-DVD player whern they become a bit cheaper.

FYI: I have read that if you count the PS3 in, the attach rate for blue ray movies is 0.25, the attach rate for HD-DVD is about 4. Either the average buyer of HD-DVD buys 16 times more movies than the average Blu-ray buyer, or more than 90% of the peoples buying the PS3 don't buy Blu-ray.

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PS3 + BluRay V's xBox360 + HD DVD

As "Greg Williams" Stated above its the same old fight, PS3 has an inbuilt system alowing developers to make games that use BluRay, and this space is welcome with open arms... But currently the only other console that uses HD DVD's is the xBox 360, as an addon.

This addition means that developers can not asume that people will have acsess to a HD DVD drive and therefor makes games on origonal DVD's...

You can safly say as the PS3 sales pick up over the next year HD DVD's will mainly be used for films only, where as BluRay will be used for HD quality films and games.

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Anonymous Coward

@Morely Dotes and Ray

Do your tinfoil hats itch much?!

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ps3 is the best blue ray player...

Its crazy not to include the ps3 in standalone blue ray player sales. Anyone buying a Blue Ray player, would need to have a very good reason not to buy the ps3.. its the fastest, and most future proof player out there.. standalone machines can take up to 2 minutes to load discs, where as the ps3 takes a quarter of that time..

add to that, the flexibility of being able to play games if you want, browse the internet and store your music collection/photo's then choosing the ps3 is a no brainer..

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Jobs Horns

I go to Asda

They have a pretty reasonable range of Blu Ray movies at the same price or only slightly higher than the normal DVD. I dont mind paying £16 for a blue ray movie..but to have HD movies embedded into games and improved gameplay.. thats what its all about for me.

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Don't spread false info, please.

@Ray: You keep spreading false technical info like any other HD-DVD/Toshiba/Microsoft supporter fanatic out there.

1) Available space/size does matter in video coding simply because an higher bitrate means higher quality with the same codec, telling otherwise it's telling a lie. Period.

2) Blu-Ray titles are almost all 1080p BD-50GB AVC MPEG-4 H.264 encoded nowadays. And H.264 it's a far superior codec to Microsoft WMV9/VC-1 hacked MPEG-4 ASP thing.

3) Blu-Ray supports just all the codecs supported by HD-DVD. So, what are you talking about ?!

4) BD 100GB 4-layer discs will probably become a standard as soon as the DVD-Forum will have stopped trying to force the inferior HD-DVD format on current and potential customers.

5) Look around, no one is practically producing HD-DVD burners as of yet, all main manufacturers have been producing and improving Blu-Ray burners and blank media prices keep falling. The format that will win on users, and everyone knows that, it's the one that allows to make full copies at the cheapest price.

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The format more stable, what HD-DVD ?! Don't be silly !

@Eric Van Haesendonck: No, really, what are you talking about? The best optical format is the one with more space, it's just that simple.

Otherwise nowadays we will still be using 500MegaByte Hard-Drives because "they were more stable" .. yeah, sure.

The only technology better than Blu-Ray is that of holographic 500GB/1000GB discs that writes on hundreds of layers at the same time. And I hope it will be available for consumers before 2014-2015 when the next UHDV standard should start replacing the current HDTV one.

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Standards.

Is the only outcome and always will be, BR just create them as and when... anyone for BR+???

There are some people on here with brains, some lacking it seems... at present the PS3 probably is the best BR player out there as there is such a large uptake of them that the firmware etc will always be the first one to market, so as an introductory player it's a good one...

HD DVD is still the superior format in my view, people talking of BR 4 layer discs becoming standard is utter speculation.... and will be yet another nail in the coffin as existing players won't be able to handle them... HD51 discs are readable by existing players, so you invest in something and it's not made redundant by the next "standard" that BR announce.

HD DVD has been standardised from day onw, BR has not and that is why it'll win out. Personally i'm not fussed which does win but i wish the bickering would end soon so we can all get on with one format as the universal ones aren't that much cop in direct comparison!

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Is this really blue ray vs HD?

Or is this a historic re-enactment with HD playing the valiant betamax?

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PS3 not counted!!!

Figures can always be twisted to suit ones needs. And that of course is all the HD-DVD camp is doing.

Blu-Ray discs are blantantly outselling HD-DVD discs across the world (300 sold 2 to 1, blockbusters US don't hold HD-DVD discs due to low demand, if you want more stats it's all there on the net). If HD-DVD players are outselling Blu-Ray players, then obviously those HD-DVD investments are sitting with not much to play on them, as the owners are not buying many films. Or of course, the alternative.... shock horror, PS3 owners are buying films to watch on their PS3s.

Funny thought that one, but then i own a PS3, i do not own any stand alone HD disc player, and yet i have replaced every DVD in my library i can with a Blu-Ray disc, and there are plenty of movies coming out on the run up to Xmas which i am really looking forward to obtaining. OK my Blu-Ray movie list extends to maybe 10 movies so far, but by xmas that will probably be doubled, and you'll never believe it, i watch them all through my PS3.

Will i care much if Blu-Ray dies, no, not really as i have not forked out for a stand alone player, my PS3 will have many years use for gaming, and playing movies, probably will last until the next movie format arrives. Alternatively, had i purchased a standalone player and had it's format die, yep i would care. I recall the days when my dad purchased a BetaMax video player (the superior format), and going to the film rental store, and always seeing that list of films available deminish, until one day there were no films available at all. Just goes to show, which format is superior is not the issue, it is all about marketing and getting those players out there and ensuring there are plenty of films available. Sony are getting the players out there, and marketing very well at the moment, the films are coming.

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Standards - or double standards

@Scott Mckenzie

"HD DVD is still the superior format in my view, people talking of BR 4 layer discs becoming standard is utter speculation.... and will be yet another nail in the coffin as existing players won't be able to handle them... HD51 discs are readable by existing players, so you invest in something and it's not made redundant by the next "standard" that BR announce."

Hitachi has published a press release claiming to have developed a 100 GB Blu-ray disc, capable of being played in a already released Blu-ray player, although it requires a firmware, apparently to tweak the focusing mechanism of the laser. Neither Hitachi, nor Toshiba, has shown any working solution, so I will therefore take both developments with an appropriate amount of salt.

If Toshiba succeeds in bringing out a 3 layer, 51 GB disc capable of working in every single one of all the current HD DVD players, then I will stand down and applaud Toshiba, but if it only works in some of the players, then of course its not a viable solution. Of course, then you could claim that it is exactly like Blu-ray with the different profiles and that would be somewhat correct, but with the caveat that even if you bought a 1st generation Blu-ray player, you would still be able to play the new disc, just not with the new features.

If Toshiba does not succeed in making it work in every single player on the market so far, that would make that version of HD DVD somewhat near "dead in the water" and would certainly remove the claim of Blu-ray being the only specification under constant review. And according to this site, http://thedigitalbits.com/#mytwocents (dated 9th october 2007), even Toshiba claims that it is not possible to get it to work without physical hardware modification, so until Toshiba (and Hitachi for that matter) shows a vanilla, older generation, HD player playing one of the new discs, then I will claim that the new "extensions" are worthless - for both sides.

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Gates Horns

Look @ industry support of both formats.

Look at all of the players and discs that are being put out. Blu-Ray is supported widely by manufacturers. Did you notice that Hitachi is the comapny that is making 100+ BD roms not Sony.

If you think that just because the product is cheaper it is better, think again. The longevity of HD DVD isn't good.

If you blame the BD as a format for not being able to support certain discs you are wrong... it is the manufacturers fault. My LG Superblu 1000 doesn't playback HD DVD bonus materials, Do I blame Toshiba or LG? I think it is obvious. US early adopters are going to experience some negative side effects of a new technology. I like how scratch resistant my Blu-discs are because i have a little nephew who will be sure to get his hands on anything shiney.

To not include the sales of ps3 into the stand alone is a complete denial for the HD DVD Camp for sure. They can dismiss it but only by looking the other way, and by making false negetive comments.

I like both formats, but Blu is my personal preference.

HD DVD is unfortunately going to be around for a while due to transformers and that is the only HD disc that I will buy for my LG Super.

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