Cry about them having a document they didn't use until Nanny FIA comes along and takes them out of the constructor's championship for you.

I thought FIA stood for Ferrari International Assistance, only to be called when Ferrari are about to be beaten by another team.

:-)

Radiopig.

.......a hundred million there, soon you'll be talking about a large amount of money!

If it was Ferrari in the dock then we all know the punishment would Max Mosley telling them to stop being naughty.

As Murray Walker said on R4's Today programme this morning, FIA stands for "Ferrari International Assistance"

"The team must also prove its cars contain no Ferrari intellectual property for the 2008 season."

How are they supposed to do that?

Surely a better solution is for McLaren to loan Ferrari a car, full documentation, and their chief engineer for the rest of the season.

John

Bernie Ecclestone? If so, how was this a fair and impartial hearing?

Ferrari? If so, no wonder they found so much evidence against them

The poor fo the third world? I don't think so.

It seems that most large sports are governed by old cronies that have there own personal vendettas, bias opinions or Napoleon complexes. The FIA seem hell bent on destroying the reputation of the sport they are there to protect.

This latest decision has made me give up on Formula one altogether. I hope it dies now and something fairer and more entertaining comes along.

>>"The team must also prove its cars contain no Ferrari intellectual property for the 2008 season."

How do they do that, unless their engineers have comprehensive knowledge of what Ferrari intellectual property is?

...considering the FIA *is* Ferrari.

It'll be an empty victory for them at the end of the season anyway, when everyone outside the FIA and Italy realise who has actually won the championship. I just pray to God that McLaren release this other "evidence" that they've been touted to have against another team, and that it implicates Ferrari in doing naughty stuff.

$100 Million, just how much money is there in an F1 team. Is this a case of Ferrari making sure they win next year as well by bankrupting McLaren.

And who gets the $100 Million.

For the love of all that is holy, you're a UK site, please stop using dollars!! it's as embarrasing as being forced to install Quicktime as English (US) because the UK doesnt exist in Apple's view of the world!

I heard Murray Walker say that the cynical sometimes say that FIA stands for Ferrarri International Assistance. Well colour me cynical.

We have the best competition in F1 in years and this action is about to alienate the fans big time.

- NSB

If Ferrari email secret docs to every other team, they will be able to cry foul & win the championship.

There has been one thing about this whole case that really confuses and, whenever it is mentioned by someone who does not follow formula one; it is always one of the first things they mention.

A Ferrari employee stole a dossier containing Ferrari technical information. He then gave it to McClaren. Okay. As soon as McClaren found out about this, they should have notified Ferrari, the FIA (or WMSC) and the police. From McClarens’ point of view, this would have been an end to the matter. It would appear this did not happen and, therefore, they have to accept some responsibility.

However, and this is the thing all people with no interest in F1 seem to be asking. What about Ferrari's role? They have allowed a Dossier (about 800 pages if press reports are to be believed) containing full technical data on their car, to disappear. They appeared not even to notice until it was bough to their attention by a third part. The man who took it was either an employee at the time (in which case it's Ferrari's responsibility to control him) or he wasn't, in which case it's Ferrari's responsibility to ensure outside parties can't access confidential data.

The fact that they have failed to act responsibly has resulted in the sport being bought into disrepute. I fail to see how even Ferrari could begin to argue against this. Their incompetence has caused the whole furore and yet no punishment has been handed out to them.

Short of the usual conspiracy theories (no, most members of the WMSC are NOT on the Ferrari pay-roll!) can anyone think of a single reason as to why Ferrari have not been charged with bringing the sport into Disrepute?

So McLaren have been found guilty of having Ferrari technology in their cars, and been told that next year they have to prove that they don't have Ferrari technology in their cars (I'll leave the debate/argument about proving negatives to someone else..)

How can McLaren prove that they don't have Ferrari technology without seeing what technology Ferrari have ?

McLaren should simply retaliate by sending some technical data on their car to someone in Ferrari, as apparently the guilty party is not the crook who works for Ferrari who stole the data, but the recipient who made no use of the data, but failed to immediately report the leak (is there a legal duty to do so?)

So all I have to do now is mail an internal doc to another team and they get banned? [M.Burns] Ekcellent... [/M.Burns]

Didn't I read somewhere that the data was passed over to provide evidence of rule breaking by Ferrari? (re: flexible components which were used in Austrailia and clarified as illeagle shortly afterwards?)

I Think it is quite obvious which team is the better constructor. we really dont need an edited table to know that! Its obvious that Ferrero have lost the plot this season, there cars are falling apart as they try to crank em up, somehow I doubt Mac want to copy that!

$100 MILLION? "Yes, and make the cheque out to F.I.A."

No conflict of interest there, eh?

"For the love of all that is holy, you're a UK site, please stop using dollars!! "

Eh? They were fined $100m. They weren't fined a certain number of pounds/euro/turkish lira or anything else. If you're so out of touch you don't know the value of a US dollar in your local currency, that's hardly El Reg's problem - go look it up.

It was £50m.

To be fair, the fine was handed down in US$ - what I can't understand is "why?"

From what I'm aware, the FIA are world-wide, based in France, and the predominant area of it's authority lies in Europe (what with the greater proportion of races held there).

Either way, it's an absolute travesty for the sport. McLaren will likely get the fine reduced on appeal, but as for the constructor points, I would guess if they ever did get that taken down on appeal, the season would be over and it would turn into even more of a farce.

Spying is defined as followed according to Dictionary.com:-

1. a person employed by a government to obtain secret information or intelligence about another, usually hostile, country, esp. with reference to military or naval affairs.

2. a person who keeps close and secret watch on the actions and words of another or others.

3. a person who seeks to obtain confidential information about the activities, plans, methods, etc., of an organization or person, esp. one who is employed for this purpose by a competitor: an industrial spy.

4. the act of spying.

–verb (used without object) 5. to observe secretively or furtively with hostile intent (often fol. by on or upon).

6. to act as a spy; engage in espionage.

7. to be on the lookout; keep watch.

8. to search for or examine something closely or carefully.

–verb (used with object) 9. to catch sight of suddenly; espy; descry: to spy a rare bird overhead.

10. to discover or find out by observation or scrutiny (often fol. by out).

11. to observe (a person, place, enemy, etc.) secretively or furtively with hostile intent.

12. to inspect or examine or to search or look for closely or carefully.

I cant see why they have been charged as none of these actions can be attributed to McLaren or any of its staff except Coughlin. Surely the punishment should go to him and Stepney...

the 'stolen' technical data/design was that of CD autochanger?

We will probably see McLaren drivers P1 and P2 in the championship.

We will then see the FIA hand over the constructors trophy to Ferrari, but we will all know who the real champions are.

And I sincerely hope the prizegiving is accompanied by much loud booing.

We'll soon find out when Ronaldinho, Kaka and Cristiano Ronaldo turn out for Queens Park Rangers next season.

It's McLaren's turn.

Back in the late 70's/early 80's Lotus had a brilliant idea; increase downward grip, without raising the weight of the car. So they put ground-effect spoilers on their cars and had great success. FIA spat the dummy out and said that evil spoilers and air dams were tantimount to cheating. The following year a certain company from Modena sported "stabilisers" to keep the car "safely on the road". 'Well done', said the FIA.

For all the cynical hacks out there isn't Jean Todt on the FIA/WMSC board along with 3-4 other Ferrari representatives?

Stinks like the World Superbike fiasco involving Ducati (aren't they owned by Fiat who in turn own Ferrari?) crying everytime they got beat by a 4 cylinder machine so were allowed to increase their bikes capacity (750cc for 4 cylinders, 990 for twins) that's why major players like Suzuki and Kawasaki dropped right off the running. Honda only really kicked back in when they too went twin cylinder.

In a time when the FIA are talking up cost reductions in F1, they hit a team with a £50m fine which is almost the lower end teams entire annual budget.

AND if I recall this right - Schumi may have been the first car into Parc-firme but he was alway the last to leave to go to the podium if he was beaten... taking extra special care of having a right good look at the opponents car that had just beaten him. Wasn't it Ferrari last season that complained of Renaults/Hondas suspension setup?

Not any more. With all the restrictions placed on F1, the top American racing series are now reaching higher top speeds than F1. Just compare lap times (that is, if the champ cars race on any of the F1 circuits these days).

The problem with the FIA lies right at the top, and its name is Max. Employ a businessman to run an association and you get decisions made on business principles. Surely we need an ex-driver in Max's post?

My advice to all who are disheartened by the politics in this year's F1 is: watch the bikes! Admittedly this year has not been the best for MotoGP due to changes in tyre rules, but if you want to see competitive racing without foolish restrictions and rules, and *overtaking on track* instead of in the pits, this is the way to go.

I feel compelled to watch the rest of the F1 season to see whether Hamilton can win, but my disgust at the FIA only increases. No more live races for me this year! I shall record them on my PVR so I can skip the adverts. Take that, advertisers on ITV!

Seriously though, McLaren will now have a hugely dented budget, which can only have a detrimental effect on their performance next year. If Ferrari resume their winning ways, or indeed if they continue to fight for constructor championships in court rooms instead of on track, certainly my interest in the "sport", and likely the interest of many other, will wane.

...their 2008 car contains no Ferrari technology. All they have to do is give Ferrari their car for them to go over it with a fine tooth comb.

The added bonus of this is that this means that McLaren can then claim Ferrari have had access to McLaren technology, and therefore Ferrari will be disqualified from the 2008 season.

Just look at Ferrari's car this year, it's awful. Worst they have managed for a long time and yet somehow Mclaren are winning. Next Ferrari will be claiming Mclaren have also been sabotaging their car and that this explains their poor performance aswell.

Some idiots at the FIA have really got this wrong this time. Some if not most of the blame lies squarely at Ferrari's door.

There is more to this than just some documents, this is quite a big punishment for a team possibly gaining some advantage out of another teams documents. Has there actually been any proof anyone gained anything yet, apart from Ferrari and the FIA that is?

Next season McLaren could be struggling because they are going to have to be very careful about what technology they use in their cars, even if they developed it themselves, how are they to know that Ferrari haven't developed the same technology either by themselves or with help?

I have a hard time believing that McLaren would advantage from this information, its not in their character, it is however in Ferrari's character to break the rules whenever they think they can get away with it. That said McLaren didn't bring the fact something odd was going on to the FIA straight away but that is all they should be punished for.

Meh, what's the use, the FIA rule the sport and will do what they like no matter how out or proportion it may be.

As both Murray Walker and Jackie Stewart have said, if the car is illegal allowing the Ferrari to disqualify McLaren from the Constructors side then surely the drivers have to go as well, what does Ferrari plan that Alonso and Hamilton drive in for the rest of the season, a car already declared illegal?

Oops just noticed I put Ferrari instead of FIA, my spellchecker seems to think they are interchangeable.

... the A1 GP starts on the 30th of September.

I've stopped watching F1 live because it's become incredibly boring. I just watch the (so-called) highlights and even then I'm writing e-mails or posting in forums only looking at it when the commentators start getting excited.

A1 GP is everything that F1 *used* to be before it became a matter of who spends the most money (or gets the FIA on their side) wins the race.

You get competitive racing all the way down the field, you don't end up with a few cars so far ahead that they might as well be in another race, you get proper tactical battles with the limited "Power Boost" system and cars that are not designed to seemingly leave as much "dirty air" behind them as possible to stop anyone else from slip-streaming.

Forget F1, they've shot themselves in their own feet (or tyres) and are now reaping what they have sown.

>>"The team must also prove its cars contain no Ferrari intellectual property for the 2008 season."

>How do they do that, unless their engineers have comprehensive knowledge of what Ferrari intellectual property is?

Why, that's easy, David: McLaren simply have to hand their car over to Ferrari, the Ferrari mechanics can go over it in detail and will be able to verify that none of the technology used belongs to them. Or looks better than theirs.

Every time Ferrari are in trouble (competitively) they run to the FIA. The FIA finds for them every time. Certainly this time there seems to be grounds for some action but the fine/penalty is out of proportion.

Were I McLaren I might be inclined to let the FIA whistle for their money and see what occurs. If FIA expel McLaren then there goes any pretence of F1 being competitive and there goes the money too Maxy boy.

Couldn't agree more, Ron Dennis has become the whipping boy now that CC isn;t around.

All stinks big time, Ferrari get busted for their illegal wing, but don't loose points. Poor show.

Hopefully someone at the FA will take note, and next time a football club is found guilty of lies, deception and breaking the rules they'll get a proper fine too, not some half-hearted insult of a fine that a billionnaire owner could probably find down the back of his sofa.

It's just like the Italians to get mardy and cry when they start losing. Just look at their football team when they're losing a match, they look like a bunch of playschool kisd who have just been told that they aren't getting their milk. If I were McLaren, I would look for any opportunity to implicate Ferrari now

Now shouldn't you all stop whining? How can you believe that an 800-page technical dossier was held and not used? You must be kidding me! And of course that was the fault of one single person, not the whole team. Unfortunately that person was McLaren Chief Designer.

From the WMSC's verdict [1]:

"3.4 All three drivers responded. Mr. Hamilton responded that he had no information responsive to the FIA’s request. Mr. Alonso and Mr. de la Rosa both submitted emails to the FIA which the WMSC finds highly relevant. Subsequently (at McLaren’s request) both Mr. Alonso and Mr. de la Rosa made written statements to the WMSC verifying that these e-mails were sent and received and offering context and explanations regarding the e-mails. The e-mails show unequivocally that both Mr. Alonso and Mr. de la Rosa received confidential Ferrari information via Coughlan; that both drivers knew that this information was confidential Ferrari information and that both knew that the information was being received by Coughlan from Stepney."

Interested parties should follow the link below to read the details of these e-mails, which include the drivers discussing Ferrari's weight distribution and flexible wing & aero balance. Armed with such information it's easy to see how the WMSC would find McLaren guilty of gaining an unfair advantage over their rivals.

[1] Full verdict available here: http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2007/09/14/fia-verdict-on-mclaren-full-text/

I am once again reminded of just how bloody self-obsessed the English are. As if Ron Dennis never ran to the FIA with some frivolity. Face it Ron's hired some dodgey people who got him nailed in an FIA world court.

And frankly the way I see it the FIA has bent itself backwards to maintain some integrity without ruining Wunderkind-Brit Hamilton's stunning opening season. Remember the FIA had already blatantly dismissed this case once before.

If this was such a pro-Ferrari move why not eliminate the drivers as well as booting Mclaren from this and next year's season?

Moral of the story: Don't receive stolen property it's a crime anyway you slice it.

GO BMW/SAUBER!

Yes, the reason that this all came to light in the first place is that the one and only confirmed use of the documents was to catch Ferrari using an illegal floor on their car in the opening race.

For which the FIA thought long and hard, and told Ferrari to stop being naughty, if they didn't mind too much.

Max and Bernie really, really wanted to bring Ron down a notch or two after the whole TV Rights renegotiation a while back. Now they have their chance, they've got a fine 12 times the size of the one doled out for killing 31 people in the Paddington rail crash.

If McLaren really wanted to cheat their way to the prize, they should have just asked Alonso to deliberately plough straight through the Ferrari pitlane at speed; it would have been cheaper.

Having just read the FIA's press release detailing the reasoning behind finding McLaren guilty, it seems like an open-and-shut case really - Alonso/De la Rosa were e-mailing each other and the contact in McLaren for confidential Ferrari data, he was getting it from his mate at Ferrari, and passing it back to the drivers (note golden-boy Hamilton stayed out of all of this!).

Surely this must be the largest non-Microsoft IT-related fine ever? And although the FIA can't touch Alonso or De la Rosa, surely McLaren have nothing to lose (now that they can't get any more constructors points) by sacking them both for gross misconduct?

I notice that the FIA are going to wait as late as possible in the day to anounce their excuses, (ahem) reasons for this ridiculous situation. Maybe they are hoping for something terrible to happen that they can bury it under.

I hope that McLaren shut Fiat out of this competition for the rest of the season. If I were Ron, I would refuse to send my drivers to the Podium in protest for the rest of the year now, lets see how fun it is for Massa or Raikonnen to stand on his own and listen the British national anthem!

Either that or I would encourage my drivers to be "aggresive" with the red cars for the last four races and try to hand the title to BMW. (Not going to happen I know, but it would be funny)

From the FIA document

http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/17844641__WMSC_Decision_130907.pdf

6.0 "At the 26 July WMSC meeting (and the evidence was repeated at the hearing of

13 September) it was noted that Coughlan had revealed to his superior at

McLaren, Mr. Neale, that Stepney had attempted to pass secret Ferrari

information to Coughlan. A firewall was set up at the instigation of Mr. Neale to

prevent further contacts from Stepney and Coughlan was directed to cease contact

with Stepney. Within a matter of weeks thereafter, Coughlan attempted to show

some photographs to Mr. Neale which, according to Mr. Neale himself, because

of the manner in which they were produced, suggested to Mr. Neale that they

should not have been in Coughlan’s possession. Rather than establish the facts

and take appropriate action as his superior at McLaren, Mr. Neale advised

Coughlan to destroy the photographs. Coming as soon as it did after McLaren

had been required to install a firewall and had directed this same employee to

cease contact with a known source of Ferrari confidential information, the WMSC

notes that it is very unsatisfactory that no further action was taken to investigate

this matter further and make appropriate disclosures to the FIA as regulator."

It seems to me (as an unbiased McLaren fan) that Coughlan almost set out to get McLaren in trouble. He has been told twice not to use the information and instead carries on.

I don't know who he is but something stinks.

If the constructors championship ends up with the predicable result, ie Ferrari being GIVEN the title, then what we need is some people who have got nothing to loose and don't give a damn what the FIA says... hmmm say Top Gear, to do a "Real F1 Constructors Championship" Trophy and award it to McClaren :D

We ALL know who will REALLY win the championship, now matter who is given the trophy.

i've been watching A1 since it was first run 2 years ago. some incredibly fantastic races. If anything, not only more exciting than I remember F1 being in the last 20 years, but reminds me of the BTCC at its height of 10 years ago.

Nothing compares to Jos Verstappen's win by a crazy punt through the last 2-3 corners of a race, south africa i think it was. Add in the much more consistant qualifying, and the dual starting methods (sprint race has a rolling start, the longer one a standing) means it plays to different drivers. Oh, and we get different drivers, because the only points are for the teams. Zandevoort, 2 weeks, can't wait

Spying has been part of F1 for ages, so as bending the rules.

How many components of the 1998 did Mclaren have to change after each grand pix because they bent the rules?

As much as renault in previous years an Ferrari in others.

There is a price to be on top and that is technological niches. Everyone who can't do what you can will cry foul.

But don't forget that what ferrari did with Mclaren, Mclaren is doing with Renault (and tried to do before the hearing so as to distract the judges). A said Mclaren employ left for renault with 3 discs full of confidential info on Mclarens car. Now what the f@@@ have you got to say about it? Is it Mclaren's fault or Renault's?

Reminds me of the French getting most of the British cars banned from the 1966 Monte Carlo, including the 1st, 2nd and 3rd place Minis, just because they had an "illegal headlight dipper"...

I disagree with the decision, however, if the constructors lose the points, then surely the drivers have to also. The fact they didn't as it would have lost countless millions of viewers indicates the lack of objectivity at play!!

... ummm... McClaren received a document.

This document contained Ferarri technical information.

This document is currently held at an employees address.

McClaren say "...we did not use any leaked information to gain a competitive advantage...". I assume that means they didn't win a race due to anything gleaned from Ferarri.

Lets just say that document is being held at an engineers address, and it happens to be bed time reading.

Next day at the office he has an amazing idea, he can't quite remember where he got it from, but he's sure he thought of it.

That's blatent intellectual property theft.

That fine does sound huge, but they were in the wrong. They're idiots for getting caught anyway. You don't see software companies getting caught red handed with this kind of stuff, they're far too devious.