back to article Martian ice swaps poles every 25,000 years

Water-ice on Mars swaps poles over a cycle that spans 51,000 years or so, in step with the way the planet precesses, or wobbles around on its axis. Researchers investigating the different types of ice at the Martian poles plugged new data from the Mars Express mission into a model of the planet's climate. Then, adding in …

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Climate Change

Think that our planet wobbling about on its axis could provide an answer as to why climate change is happening without getting all hysterical about carbon footprints and farting cows ?

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No-one really knows

Unfortunately no-one 25,000 years ago really had the technology to monitor the air, sea and ice flows like we do now, so no-one really 100% can say what is happening. Just read Bryson's book.

At the end of the day something is up because its July and I got rained on on the way back from the pub!!

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Don't be daft

"Think that our planet wobbling about on its axis could provide an answer as to why climate change is happening without getting all hysterical about carbon footprints and farting cows ?"

How's the government supposed to defraud us all out of our money with "Green taxes" if that's the case? ;-)

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Jesus Christ! Mars Flips Around 90 degrees!!

Well DUH! Of course the ice caps flip from one "end" (up or down) of Mars, because Mars axis flips around like a wobbly top. Because Mars has no Moon of any substance as the Earth does to stabilize its rotation, it precesses around as much as 90 degrees in relatively short time spans! Look it up!

Which is WHY Mars can NEVER BE "tera farmed" becasue you would have wildly erratic seasons at any geographic area of Mars! Not withstanding the high solar radiation, extreme tempatures, 200 MPH AVERAGE winds, NO Soil, etc. etc.

Idiots like phony "scientist" Robt. Zubrin and his like of Mars Colonization fruit cakes never talk about this. Know why? They want your tax dollars to fund the Mars folly, but it really goes into their pockets.

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Jesus Christ! Mars Flips Around 90 degrees!!

Well DUH! Of course the ice caps flip from one "end" (up or down) of Mars, because Mars axis flips around like a wobbly top. Because Mars has no Moon of any substance as the Earth does to stabilize its rotation, it precesses around as much as 90 degrees in relatively short time spans! Look it up!

Which is WHY Mars can NEVER BE "tera farmed" becasue you would have wildly erratic seasons at any geographic area of Mars! Not withstanding the high solar radiation, extreme tempatures, 200 MPH AVERAGE winds, NO Soil, etc. etc.

Idiots like phony "scientist" Robt. Zubrin and his like of Mars Colonization fruit cakes never talk about this. Know why? They want your tax dollars to fund the Mars folly, but it really goes into their pockets.

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Anonymous Coward

Statement expected soon...

...albeit an indecipherable one - from AManFromMars. The horse's mouth, so to speak.

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Like man, you know, what if...?

As AManFromMars hasn't come forward I'll venture a weird comment. If the procession of a planet has such an impact could it play a part in the reversal of the magnetic poles we sometimes see in the record of Earth? Has anyone noted any evidence of Climate Change and magnetic pole reversal? It's Friday I can post stuff like this if I want to. :)

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Anonymous Coward

Skeptics self-delusory as usual

"Think that our planet wobbling about on its axis could provide an answer as to why climate change is happening without getting all hysterical about carbon footprints and farting cows ?"

No, I don't, because (as I'm sure you bothered to research before coming out with your theory) the Earth's precession takes place on a timescale of 19000 years, so the tiny change over the last half-century would make a difference that us scientists describe as "precisely half of bugger all".

You really are pathetic. You just made up a completely stupid and implausible theory without the slightest bit of evidence or reasoning to back it up just because you'd rather delude yourself and live in a fantasy world where you can be right all the time about everything and everything happens just how you wish than admit the possibility that some people whose politics you don't like could nonetheless be correct about a bunch of scientific measurements.

Let there be *no* doubt about this: your skepticism about global warming is not based on knowledge, facts, or evidence, but simply on your dislike of the people who first realised it was going on.

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Silver badge

Re: Skeptics self-delusory as usual

It may have been that "Mark" was being sarcastic.

Besides, there's nothing wrong about an inquiring mind and wondering as to the effect of a planet's wobble on it's climate and how this relates to Earth. If we didn't wonder such things we wouldn't have bothered to pick up sticks and whack everything we see with them (and thereby build a society based on this)

As from "AManFromMars", not coming forward, maybe it's because we've discovered the secret behind his writing style...

Back to the plot (ish)... terraforming Mars. Probably the only sane way to do this is to let the expert do it - bacteria. Just ship skip loads of Earth bacteria (and basic resources, mud etc) from every available eco-system we have, lob them on the planet and see what happens. Earth's bacteria is pretty much capable of surviving in any part of this planet, some of them are bound to be able to survive on Mars (or will quickly mutate to try and survive). Give them a couple of years and those that aren't tenable will fail, those that are will thrive and prosper (possibly). In any case, we'll know a bit more about the process. It'll be a much better plan than humans attempting to produce oxygen generators, bio-engineered grass and all manner of other odd and highly impractical plans...

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Not just bacteria

You also need the green stuff. Algae, lichen, etc.

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Re: Skeptics self-delusory as usual

"Let there be *no* doubt about this: your skepticism about global warming is not based on knowledge, facts, or evidence, but simply on your dislike of the people who first realised it was going on."

je m' amuse

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Wobbling planets

The degree of change to Earth's axial inclination is restricted by the relatively massive Moon. Earth's axis tilts between 21.5 degrees and 24.5 degrees to the normal of its orbit on a regular 41,000 year cycle. This is one of the so-called Milankovitch Cycles which have been linked to the regular glacial cycles since the Pleistocene. These cycles are included in the calculations for global climate, so no - changes in the tilt of Earth do not fully explain the current state of global warming.

Mars has no large moon and its axial tilt may change by anything between 45 and 60 degrees.

HTH.

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Silver badge

Re: Not just bacteria

True, with the places that the algae and lichen grow (i.e, the driest places in the world), they might even thrive on Mars.

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Anonymous Coward

Eath's pole-shifting and climate change

There's strong evidence that the Earth has undergone its own pole-shifting, and that there's a relationship with Earth's biggest climate cycles, the ice ages.

http://www.sonsofgod-daughtersofmen.com/iceage.htm

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algae dry???

thought it was the green stuff ontop of ponds, which are traditionally pretty wet.....

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Imagine that...

"Run the clock forward towards today, and the opposite starts to happen: the ice at the south vaporises and shifts on the winds to the north. The process was interrupted about 1,000 years ago, the researchers say, when for some reason a layer of carbon dioxide ice formed a protective layer over the ice, preventing further erosion."

Another climate model gone awry.

So coincidentally Mars is warming at the same time as the earth, but it really should have happened a thousand years ago according to our calculations. And the science is settled on the consensus of our, umm, computer models.

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Thour our planet wobbling could be a reason for me to keep my car?

"Think that our planet wobbling about on its axis could provide an answer as to why climate change is happening without getting all hysterical about carbon footprints and farting cows ?"

Tr: "Please can I bury my head in the ground amid the mounting scientific evidence, because I *really* like my car, and don't want to give it up."

How's the government supposed to defraud us all out of our money with "Green taxes" if that's the case? ;-)

Tr: "... and road safety cameras are just a stealth tax on motorists. I *LIKE* driving at 50mph through residential areas, and it is my god given right to continue doing so"

Look, guys, I'm no tree hugger myself (I drive a 2.8 petrol gas guzzler at the moment), but perhaps we should be listening to the huge numbers of QUALIFIED SCIENTISTS who say that CO2 is impacting on our thin atmosphere?

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Eccentricities

Lost in the fuss about precession is another fact about Mars - it has a much more eccentric orbit than Earth (.0935 vs. .0167). Its axis is currently inclined about the same as Earth's, but can vary by as much as ten degrees while Earth's only varies by about one. This means you can get a lot more variation between weather in Mars' northern and southern hemispheres.

It's the eccentricity. And since Mars is a much simpler place than Earth (in a relative way, of course!) I'd be more inclined to trust long-term climate forecasts for Mars.

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Martians didn't look after their planet

The Martians didn't look after their planet and serves as a lesson to humans.

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Anonymous Coward

RE: Eath's pole-shifting and climate change

"There's strong evidence that the Earth has undergone its own pole-shifting, and that there's a relationship with Earth's biggest climate cycles, the ice ages."

"http://www.sonsofgod-daughtersofmen.com/iceage.htm".

Pish-posh there's any evidence of the sort.

Just in case a website based in mid-western USA called "www.sonsofgod-daughtersofmen.com" didn't ring any alarm bells....

A certain "Charles Hapgood" advanced the theory that sudden, rapid continental drift occurred about 11,000 years ago which suddenly froze continents.

He also evinced much interest in the mythological continent of "Atlantis", and co-wrote a book called "Voices of spirit : through the psychic experience of Elwood Babbitt".

Forgive me if I fail to take him seriously.

The other problem with these "pole-shifters" is that they confuse geographic with magnetic poles (which DO wander and switch polarity every now and then).

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Title

"coincidentally Mars is warming at the same time as the earth" - no, I read it to say the hemispheres are swapping the ice cap over.

However, if I installed double glazing in a previously single glazed house, I would expect to either have to turn down the heat input, or to prepare to get hotter !!

(Increase in 'greenhouse efficiency' in the case of CO2/CH4)

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Not to be facetious or anything :)

But if indeed the farting farm cows, and i assume other grass mungers, are a factor as well as other human activites in causing global warming that would not otherwise have happen. Then it begs the question why now when they have been around for a very long time, and I assume farting the entire time.

Not to say we shouldn't spend money cleaning up, I do like to breathe after all. But what if it was going to happen anyway and we can do nothing about it should we not spend money on trying to adapt as opposed to trying to control the environment and climate of a whole planet. More often than not we can not see the consequences of our actions, imagine if we accidently started a ice age through some mad cap plan to curb global warming.

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So which is right?

Webster Phreaky writes:

'...it precesses around as much as 90 degrees in relatively short time spans...'

Mike Richards writes:

'Mars has no large moon and its axial tilt may change by anything between 45 and 60 degrees.'

Dr Ellen writes:

'...but can vary by as much as ten degrees while Earth's only varies by about one...'

By power of deduction, at least two people are talking crap!

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Mars Tilt

According To MSN encarta

"

A major difference between Earth and Mars is the stability of the tilt of the planet’s axis. Due to gravitational effects of the Moon, Earth maintains a relatively stable 23.5 degree tilt on its axis, with only a slight wobble (obliquity) between about 22.1° to 24.6° over a timescale of millions of years. Without a large moon, and being closer to the strong gravitational pull of Jupiter, Mars has a much more dramatic wobble to its axis, resulting in a tilt that may shift from 0 degrees to 60 degrees and causing major climate shifts over time, between massive ice ages and relative warm periods. When the tilt of Mars is nearly vertical, the polar caps may expand almost to the equator. At its greatest tilt, one pole is warmed almost directly by the Sun, likely releasing the deposits of frozen water and gas into the atmosphere.

"

see

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761566582_5/Mars_(planet).html#p71

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